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Thread: Jesus is God vs. Jesus is YHVH

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ktoyou View Post
    That is baloney, the site you found is all baloney! "The word is with God" and Jesus is 'the Word;, which does not mean He is some other strange god, you pagan. Jesus is God.
    Yep, I'm thinking JW baloney.

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Sure do! Scripture says that the Word was God. You do not have to believe it but God said it.
    Nor will anyone know God until they recognize Jesus as God....Lord and God....Saviour....Creator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ktoyou View Post
    That is baloney, the site you found is all baloney! "The word is with God" and Jesus is 'the Word;, which does not mean He is some other strange god, you pagan. Jesus is God.
    "The site you found" is my own blog of my own personal studies. If anyone were to actually study it, they would know that it is true (but probably would not admit it).

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    TOL Legend Ktoyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    "The site you found" is my own blog of my own personal studies. If anyone were to actually study it, they would know that it is true (but probably would not admit it).
    I figured as much a you are a JW, now admit it!
    So, what?

    believe it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    "The site you found" is my own blog of my own personal studies. If anyone were to actually study it, they would know that it is true (but probably would not admit it).
    That "a god" you preach is the Creator. There is no other God out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    That "a god" you preach is the Creator. There is no other God out there.
    The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985 clearly recognizes the truth about the lesser meaning of theos and elohim ('a god'):


    "In the language of the OT ... rulers and judges, as deputies of the heavenly King, could be given the honorific title ‘god’ ... or be called ‘son of God’.” - footnote for Ps. 82:1.

    And, in the footnote for Ps. 45:6, this trinitarian study Bible tells us: “In this psalm, which praises the [Israelite] king ..., it is not unthinkable that he was called ‘god’ as a title of honor (cf. Isa. 9:6).”

    The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, tells us:

    “The reason why judges are called ‘gods’ in Ps. 82 is that they have the office of administering God’s judgment as ‘sons of the Most High’. In context of the Ps. the men in question have failed to do this.... On the other hand, Jesus fulfilled the role of a true judge as a ‘god’ and ‘son of the Most High’.” - Vol. 3, p. 187.

    The highly respected (and highly trinitarian) W. E. Vine tells us:

    “The word [theos, ‘god’ or ‘God’] is used of Divinely appointed judges in Israel, as representing God in His authority, John 10:34” - p. 491, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

    B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament says for John 10:34-36:

    "Is it not written in your law. In Psa. 82. I said, Ye are gods? It was there addressed to judges. Christ's argument is: If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God? Sanctified. Set apart." - http://www.studylight.org/com/pnt/vi...se=34#Joh10_34

    And Barnes’ Notes tells us in commenting on John 10:34, 35:

    The scripture cannot be broken. See Matthew 5:19. The authority of the Scripture is final; it cannot be set aside. The meaning is,

    'If, therefore, the Scripture uses the word "god" as applied to magistrates, it settles the question that it is right to apply the term to those in office and authority. If applied to them, it may be to others in similar offices. It can not, therefore, be blasphemy to use this word as applicable to a personage so much more exalted than mere magistrates as the Messiah.' -Barnes' Notes on the New Testament - http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/vi...oh&chapter=010

    Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, Eerdmans, 1978 Reprint, “Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation”:

    “65. GOD - is used of any one (professedly) MIGHTY, whether truly so or not, and is applied not only to the true God, but to false gods, magistrates, judges, angels, prophets, etc., e.g. - Exod. 7:1; 15:11; 21:6; 22:8, 9;...Ps. 8:5; 45:6; 82:1, 6; 97:7, 9...John 1:1; 10:33, 34, 35; 20:28....”

    Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Abingdon, 1974 printing,

    “430. [elohim]. el-o-heem’; plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but spec. used (in the plur. thus, esp. with the art.) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, ... x (very) great, judges, x mighty.” - p. 12, “Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary.”

    The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, 1979, Hendrickson, p. 43:

    Elohim: “a. rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power.... b. divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels.... c. angels Ps. 97 7 ...”

    Angels are clearly called gods (elohim) at Ps. 8:5, 6. We know this because this passage is quoted at Heb. 2:6, 7, and there the word “angels” is used (in place of elohim in the OT) in NT Greek. The trinitarian New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., 1970, says in a footnote for Ps. 8:6 -

    “The angels: in Hebrew, elohim, which is the ordinary word for ‘God’ or ‘the gods’; hence the ancient versions generally understood the term as referring to heavenly spirits [angels].”

    Some of these trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God’s angels as gods include:

    1. Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, “Hints and Helps...,” Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;

    2. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew and Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;

    3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133, Tyndale House Publ., 1984;

    4. Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208, Bethany House Publ., 1982;

    5. Hastings’ A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;

    6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;

    7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;

    8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; and p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;

    9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; and Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;

    10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7, 1970 ed.;

    11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;

    12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;

    13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, Baker Book House, 1992;

    14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press, 1975;

    15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 and Ps. 82:6);

    16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);

    17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown
    (John 10:34-36);

    18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Deut. 10:17; Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);

    19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).

    20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), - p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.

    21. The Expositor’s Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.

    22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.

    23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.

    24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.

    25. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.

    26. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 24, vol. III, Zondervan, 1957 reprint.

    27. Theological Dictionary, Rahner and Vorgrimler, p. 20, Herder and Herder, 1965.

    28. Pastor Jon Courson, The Gospel According to John.

    29. Vincent’s New Testament Word Studies, John 10:36.

    30. C. J. Ellicott, John 10:34, Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers.



    (Also John 10:34, 35 - CEV: TEV; GodsWord; The Message; NLT; NIRV; David Guzik - http://www.blbclassic.org/commentari...=31&topic=John )


    And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen (see DEF note #1) and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus (p. 9, DEF); the writer of “The Epistle to Diognetus”; and even super-trinitarians Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding for “a god.” And, as we saw above, many highly respected NT scholars of this century agree.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    Bright Raven wrote

    Many Bibles say that the Word is God at John 1:1c. The NT Greek manuscripts and texts, however, say that the Word is a god. http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot....primer_21.html
    That is JW theology.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    That is JW theology.
    I don't care if it's anybody's theology. I just know that I spent years studying that one scripture and John's grammar and usage everywhere else. I can prove that my own private study of John 1:1c proves that it should read "And the Word was a god." And if anyone here insists I am wrong without actually carefully studying my work, that is their loss and a violation of the actual truth-seeking process.

    http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot....ohn-11c-a.html

    http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot....primer_21.html

    http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot....-john-11c.html

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    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    I don't care if it's anybody's theology.
    You should, especially since it's BAD theology.

    I just know that I spent years studying that one scripture and John's grammar and usage everywhere else. I can prove that my own private study of John 1:1c proves that it should read "And the Word was a god." And if anyone here insists I am wrong without actually carefully studying my work, that is their loss and a violation of the actual truth-seeking process.
    I think you need to do some more studying.

    Look up the "Granville-Sharp" rule.

    Look at the Greek for John 1:1 (I recommend using the Wescott-Hort), which does not say, "and the word was with the god and the word was god", but rather "and the word was with the god and god was the word."

    Consider these two sentences:

    The father and the husband went to the store.
    The father and husband went to the store.

    How many people in each sentence?
    Two in the first.
    One in the second.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    I can prove that my own private study of John 1:1c proves that it should read "And the Word was a god."
    Looking at the Greek, it says "and God was the Word" or possibly "and divine was the Word".
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Greetings again Idolater,
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    I didn't say that the majority is always right. I was responding to you comment that my view is "a different perspective." Since it's the majority view, it's more accurate that other views are the "different" ones, if we're comparing one to another.
    That’s fine, I was only saying that you had a different perspective to the view that I hold.
    How are you justifying this latter statement? I can't see any positive statement in Scripture saying this. It seems you draw your conclusion based on something else.
    Acts 20:17 (KJV): And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
    I read “the church” here to be singular and is speaking of the one congregation at Ephesus. My perspective is that depending on the size of the congregation there could be seven to twenty elders in each congregation.
    There are thousands of validly ordained bishops today, Catholic and Orthodox, and some of them are "diocesan" in that they preside over a diocese, but the norm is for each diocesan bishop to have a number of auxiliary bishops who assist him, and the priesthood, which are ordained assistants also to the diocesan bishops, is a very old office as well.
    If I grant that your reading there is correct, then I also have you extending out the prospect of this warning to necessarily mean that the entire office of Bishop has been as I said corrupt, ruined, and wasted. So in effect, you believe in the 'cessation of bishops,' and do not submit to your bishop as a result; and I do not believe that you have valid justification for such a view.
    iow your view is that all bishops have forsaken the true way, and so none of them teach the authentic Christian faith. I don't find support for this view.
    I belong to a lay community and do not endorse the Catholic teachings and practise. The Catholic Church has been receiving bad publicity in Australia recently.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    I don't care if it's anybody's theology. I just know that I spent years studying that one scripture and John's grammar and usage everywhere else. I can prove that my own private study of John 1:1c proves that it should read "And the Word was a god." And if anyone here insists I am wrong without actually carefully studying my work, that is their loss and a violation of the actual truth-seeking process.

    http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot....ohn-11c-a.html

    http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot....primer_21.html

    http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot....-john-11c.html

    From your 'work'...

    "- We must worship the Father in truth. - Jn 4:24"


    Jesus changed the location of worshipping The Father, to Himself and The Holy Spirit, in John 4.

    • John 4.21; Worship to The Father is no longer to take place in the Mountain, or in Jerusalem.
    • John 4.22; THE Salvation (Jesus) is out from the Jews.
    • John 4.23 – 24; Jesus declares that the NEW place to worship The Father is in Spirit and Truth, which is to worship in the Person of Jesus Christ, who is the temple, holding the Second and Third Persons’ of the Trinity.



    Now...

    Defend your 'work', witness....



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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    The reason that I say no to what you are saying is because I have read Colossians 2:9 NASB.
    Sorry, that verse doesn't say Jesus IS God, it says Jesus is FULL of God.

    I try to be, he succeeded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    That "a god" you preach is the Creator. There is no other God out there.
    The "logos" stated in John is ALWAYS something spoken, or written.

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.
    John 1:14 And the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,...
    John 2:22 ...and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
    John 4:37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.
    John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
    John 4:41 And many more believed because of his own word;
    John 4:50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.
    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life ...
    John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
    John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
    John 7:36 What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
    John 7:40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
    John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
    John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
    John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
    John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
    John 8:52 .. thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
    John 8:55 ... I know him, and keep his saying.
    John 10:19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
    John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake,..
    John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, .. hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
    John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: ...
    John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
    John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
    John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, ... if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
    John 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
    John 17:6 ... thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
    John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
    John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
    John 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
    John 19:8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;
    John 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat
    John 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Sorry, that verse doesn't say Jesus IS God, it says Jesus is FULL of God.

    I try to be, he succeeded.
    It says that all of the fullness of Deity dwells in Him in bodily form.

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