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Thread: Jesus is God vs. Jesus is YHVH

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Jacob, Yes, Psalm 110:1 is an important reference as it clearly defines that Yahweh, God the Father is distinct from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, Davidís Lord. Psalm 110 and Psalm 8 are quoted, alluded to and expounded numerous times in the NT by Jesus and the Apostles. Their teaching on the basis of these two Psalms is not understood by those of the Jewish faith, and especially by those who support the Trinity as they would prefer to ignore the clear teaching of these Psalms. These Psalms clearly teach that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    YHVH or Yod Hey Vav Hey is Yahveh.

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    John 1:1-3 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    The Deity of Jesus Christ
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.


    John 1:14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    The Word Made Flesh
    14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    If you believe the above scriptures what would be you problem with seeing the Jesus is YHVH?
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Would you say

    Jesus is God

    or

    Jesus is YHVH?

    I have said the first but I don't like saying the second. Any ideas or ways to sort this out?
    God is YHVH ..... Jesus is not.

    The ONLY sense in which Jesus IS God, is the same sense that ALL the kings of Israel (including Jesus) are called "God"(Psa 45).... which is the same sense that all the judges of Israel are called "Gods" .... as Jesus pointed out;

    John 10:34-36 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, "I said, Ye are gods"? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

    Jesus absolutely denied being Jehovah;

    Deut 18:17-19 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken.
    18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

    John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

    Acts 3:22-26 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
    23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
    24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
    25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
    26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Idolater, You certainly have a different perspective on this subject.
    Mine's the Catholic view. It's held by half the world's Christians.
    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Paul’s warning in Acts 20:28-35 and the Letters to the Seven Congregations in Revelation chapters 2 and 3 seem to indicate that there would be and was a falling away in the early centuries.

    I have not studied this period, but the following are my extracts from a book speaking about these things, and I asked a person who has done extensive study on this and he endorsed the following:
    History of the Dogma of the Deity of Christ by A Reville 1904 (from translation 1905)
    Page 4: The maxim of Vincent de Leyrins, more boastful than true, ‘the Church, when it employs new terms, never says anything new’, influenced the entire history of Christianity; philosophers and submissive believers were equally satisfied with it.

    After a brief summary of the doctrine of the Trinity he says:
    Page 9: Such is the doctrine which, having been slowly elaborated, arrived at supremacy in the Christian Church towards the end of the fifth century, and which, after continuing undisputed, excepting in connection with some obscure heresies, for eleven centuries, has been gradually from the sixteenth century losing its prestige, although it is still the professed belief of the majority of Christians.

    Page 10: … the religious sentiment … is not in the least alarmed at contradictions; on the contrary, there are times when it might be said that it seeks and delights in them. They seem to strengthen the impression of mystery, an attitude which belongs to every object of adoration.

    Speaking of the developments in the second century:
    Page 54: … the ‘celestial being’ increasingly supplanted the human being, except among the Jewish-Christians of the primitive type … These firmly maintained the opinion that Jesus was a man, … fully inspired by God … admitted his miraculous conception.

    Page 59: The Platonists began to furnish brilliant recruits to the churches of Asia and Greece, and introduced among them their love of system and their idealism. To state the facts in a few words, Hellenism insensibly supplanted Judaism as the form of Christian thought, and to this is mainly owing the orthodox dogma of the deity of Jesus Christ.

    Page 60: Hence the rapidity with which a philosophical doctrine of much earlier origin than Christianity, and at first foreign to the Church, was brought into it, and adapted itself so completely to the prevailing Christology as to become identical therewith, and to pass for the belief which had been professed by the disciples from the beginning.

    Page 96: There were some Jewish-Christians who admitted without difficulty the miraculous birth of Jesus, but would not hear of his pre-existence.

    Page 105: It is curious to read the incredible subtleties by which Athanasius and the orthodox theologians strove to remove the stumbling-block from the history of a dogma which they desired to represent as having been invariable and complete since the earliest days.

    Page 108-109: … the minds of men … either inclined to lay great stress upon the subordination of the Son, in order to keep as close as possible to the facts of Gospel history, or they dwelt strongly upon his divinity, in order to satisfy an ardent piety, which felt as if it could not exalt Christ too highly. From this sprang two doctrines, that of Arius and of Athanasius. In reality, though under other forms, it was a renewal of the struggle between rationalism and mysticism.

    Page 115: In reality, Arius, whose character and doctrine have been unjustly vilified by orthodox historians, was stating the ecclesiastical doctrine that had been in common acceptance.

    Speaking of the Nicene Creed:
    Page 121: … the majority of the council would have preferred a middle course, maintaining the traditional idea of the subordination of the Son to the Father, while ascribing to the Son as much divine attributes as they could without openly passing this limit.
    Page 124: Arianism, which had been overcome by the imperial will more than by the free judgement of the bishops, retained its power in the churches.
    Page 126: People did not believe at that period in the infallibility of councils. The West alone remained firm in adhesion to the faith of Nicea.

    Page 136: The Arian party, representing as it did the opposition to ecclesiastical authority and dogmatising mysticism, was the party generally preferred by the freer minds. It was consequently the least united. For the same reason was it the most opposed to the ascetic, monkish, and superstitious customs which more and more pervaded the church.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    There is an authentic and authorized teaching office. It was instituted by the Apostles, and is called 'Bishop,' though is also known as 'overseer' and 'elder' in the Scripture. Those who hold this office are authorized teachers of the one Christian faith. Is "A Reville" a valid bishop? If not, then Christians aren't obligated to heed what this person has to say. Instead, Christians imo ought to compare what anybody ever says, with what bishops say, when they are teaching authoritatively in matters of faith and morals.

    Those who teach contrary to what the bishops authoritatively teach, are revising history, and contradicting the Scripture, where the Scripture teaches about the office of Bishop, and that its holders are the authorized teachers of the one Christian faith.

    Those who do not submit to their bishops in effect hold to a view parallel to 'cessation of gifts,' but instead of the cessation of gifts, they believe in the cessation of the office of Bishop, which they necessarily view as being corrupt and ruined and wasted.

    I don't hold that view.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Greetings again Idolater,
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Mine's the Catholic view. It's held by half the world's Christians.
    The majority are not always right.
    There is an authentic and authorized teaching office. It was instituted by the Apostles, and is called 'Bishop,' though is also known as 'overseer' and 'elder' in the Scripture.
    Acts 20:17 indicates that there were more than one bishop at the congregation at Ephesus, and not one prominent bishop of the congregation, and certainly not one elder or bishop in a larger area covering numerous congregations as developed in the Apostate Church. Paul warned that some of the elders would forsake the true way Acts 20:18-35 and notice Acts 20:30.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Idolater, The majority are not always right.
    I didn't say that the majority is always right. I was responding to you comment that my view is "a different perspective." Since it's the majority view, it's more accurate that other views are the "different" ones, if we're comparing one to another.
    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Acts 20:17 indicates that there were more than one bishop at the congregation at Ephesus, and not one prominent bishop of the congregation
    How are you justifying this latter statement? I can't see any positive statement in Scripture saying this. It seems you draw your conclusion based on something else.
    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    , and certainly not one elder or bishop in a larger area covering numerous congregations as developed in the Apostate Church.
    There are thousands of validly ordained bishops today, Catholic and Orthodox, and some of them are "diocesan" in that they preside over a diocese, but the norm is for each diocesan bishop to have a number of auxiliary bishops who assist him, and the priesthood, which are ordained assistants also to the diocesan bishops, is a very old office as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Paul warned that some of the elders would forsake the true way Acts 20:18-35 and notice Acts 20:30.
    If I grant that your reading there is correct, then I also have you extending out the prospect of this warning to necessarily mean that the entire office of Bishop has been as I said corrupt, ruined, and wasted. So in effect, you believe in the 'cessation of bishops,' and do not submit to your bishop as a result; and I do not believe that you have valid justification for such a view.

    iow your view is that all bishops have forsaken the true way, and so none of them teach the authentic Christian faith. I don't find support for this view.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    John 1:1-3 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    The Deity of Jesus Christ
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.


    John 1:14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    The Word Made Flesh
    14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    If you believe the above scriptures what would be you problem with seeing the Jesus is YHVH?
    I do believe these scriptures, yes. I just don't see them speaking to what you are saying.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    God is YHVH ..... Jesus is not.

    The ONLY sense in which Jesus IS God, is the same sense that ALL the kings of Israel (including Jesus) are called "God"(Psa 45).... which is the same sense that all the judges of Israel are called "Gods" .... as Jesus pointed out;

    John 10:34-36 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, "I said, Ye are gods"? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

    Jesus absolutely denied being Jehovah;

    Deut 18:17-19 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken.
    18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

    John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

    Acts 3:22-26 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
    23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
    24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
    25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
    26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
    The reason that I say no to what you are saying is because I have read Colossians 2:9 NASB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    I do believe these scriptures, yes. I just don't see them speaking to what you are saying.
    They are not speaking to what I say but what to God says.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    They are not speaking to what I say but what to God says.
    The question that you were asking or what you were speaking to. These scriptures do not say that Jesus is YHVH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    The question that you were asking or what you were speaking to. These scriptures do not say that Jesus is YHVH.
    Sure do! Scripture says that the Word was God. You do not have to believe it but God said it.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Sure do! Scripture says that the Word was God. You do not have to believe it but God said it.
    YHVH is not mentioned.

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    Bright Raven wrote
    Scripture says that the Word was God. You do not have to believe it but God said it.
    Many Bibles say that the Word is God at John 1:1c. The NT Greek manuscripts and texts, however, say that the Word is a god. http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot....primer_21.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    Many Bibles say that the Word is God. The NT Greek manuscripts and texts say that the Word is a god. http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot....primer_21.html
    That is not what I am saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    Many Bibles say that the Word is God. The NT Greek manuscripts and texts say that the Word is a god. http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot....primer_21.html
    That is baloney, the site you found is all baloney! "The word is with God" and Jesus is 'the Word;, which does not mean He is some other strange god, you pagan. Jesus is God.
    So, what?

    believe it!

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