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Thread: Ad Hominem is absolutely wrong in plain language

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    Over 1500 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Unfortunately, most Catholics don't realize that's what they're doing. They have been indoctrinated.
    It's OK to be indoctrinated by those tasked by the Apostles to indoctrinate.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Which means I'm citing the Word of God, which is transmitted to us faithfully by the holders of the office that the Apostles instituted precisely for this purpose. (I am taking your "dogma" to mean authentic Catholic teaching, and not as narrow as the word "dogma" means within Catholicism; I'm just guessing that it's what you meant. Not all authentic Catholic teaching is technically "dogma," iow.)

    The Apostles instituted the office of Bishop, and then they poured their word-of-mouth teaching into every one of them, every time they met with a bishop or a prospective bishop the Apostles Taught them (cf. 2Ti2:2KJV), so that the bishops could teach; so that the bishops could do the same thing that the Apostles did to them, those first generation bishops, consecrated by the imposition of the Apostles' very own hands upon them personally, skin-to-skin.

    The skin-to-skin (sacrament of Holy Orders in Catholicism fyi) has continued to this day in Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and in those other tiny minority Christian traditions that can be validly held to trace their skin-to-skin lineage all the way back to Acts 2 or at latest to within the Apostolic era, when the Apostles walked the earth (I want to say the Copts? is one example of these, perhaps the Oriental Orthodox Church also?).

    And of these, only one of the ancientest Christian traditions does not even need to explain in what way they can justifiably claim to be the Church that Jesus of Nazareth talked about in Matthew 16:18 KJV, wrt especially that they are built upon Peter. The others need to explain it persuasively because the Catholics are the only ones who have a powerful offensive wrt Matthew 16:18 KJV; each other ancient Christian tradition must overcome the weight of this Catholic offensive. Orthodoxy explains that Peter's Roman pastorate has been in a state of rebellious schism against the other patriarchs of other historical Apostolic Sees, including Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria among them.

    Meanwhile there's you people. Protestants. Those with no bishops. You're sheep outside the fold. You spew wrong. You're wrong inherently, wrong is integral to your theology, and it's just that you're an insurrectionist, a rebel. Not by nature, but by choice.

    It doesn't matter to you people that you're operating way outside the known bounds of how the Church operated during the end of the Apostolic era, and in each subsequent generation, and in each century subsequent to the Apostolic era, where the whole Body of Christ was unified, and believed and practiced apparently uniformly, and the structural member in this was the bishops, the Church organized around the bishops, the bishops were like the trees scattered throughout the Christian forest, with all the non ordained faithful filling in the space between all the trees---the Church operated this way from the beginning, and for many centuries.

    Bishops were targeted in the scary amount of pagan perpetrated hunts, tortures, and kills against the Church, in greater proportion than were the non ordained faithful. It was because of their office that they were targeted more frequently, the bishops were supposed to stand out in some way from the rest of the Church, and the pagans saw that, and targeted them more frequently, proportionally, than they did the rest of the Church.

    You don't understand because you can't, not in your rebellion, what a gift the bishops have given to us, virtually in most ways free of charge, in St. John Paul II's catechism. Drop the weapon, just for moment. Taste and see.

    None of you people care about that. You're living a quote-unquote "Christian life" that never existed before the Reformation, where you just study your Bible and make up whatever theology is your best guess based upon your study. The study is not the wrong thing, the wrong thing is not submitting to your bishops. Study within the bounds of historic Christianity is nothing but good.
    Well of course I'm a hypocrite, but what does that have to do with you citing an event that occurred under the Old Covenant, and demanding of me to explain what it has to do with the New Covenant? The New Covenant is a new dispensation, you know, being a Dispensationalist yourself. Why would this dispensation need to pass muster in a prior dispensation, that has been redacted and fulfilled and replaced by the dedication of this dispensation, the New Covenant?

    And to repeat, Of course I'm a hypocrite. That's like calling me a human being. I'm a sinner, I'm a hypocrite, and so are all the bishops. That's unchanged from the beginning, when even Peter himself was proven to be a hypocrite. It didn't nullify his office, and it doesn't nullify the office today.

    Recall that Christ instructed to heed those sitting in the chair of Moses, not because they were hypocrites, not practicing what they preached, but even though they were hypocrites. There's no reason to think that in the New Covenant dispensation, that suddenly the authorized teachers (the bishops) must never be hypocrites, because that would mean that the office would have crumbled under Peter himself, and that today's office of Bishop is utterly corrupted and in a permanent state of irredeemable and irrecoverable ruin.

    That's an extreme view, yours.
    I wasn't congratulating you, I was informing you of the pattern. What you teach, and what Catholicism teaches, in the matter of lying, is distinctively similar. It was just and it was only an fyi. It is interesting that both you and all the Catholic bishops, an office you hold to be completely corrupt, teach distinctively similar things, in any matter, to me. I think it should be interesting to you too, and not taken to be offensive, but interesting and thought provoking.

    And my response to your scripture quote is above.
    Nope, you made that up.
    Wow.

    Hypocricy is to be expected of you. Good to know!

    Welcome to my ignore list.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

  3. #33
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    The words of the Apostles are the Word of God.
    Blasphemy.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Over 1500 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Wow.

    Hypocricy is to be expected of you. Good to know!

    Welcome to my ignore list.
    So you're the one human being who's not a hypocrite. Good to know, I knew they were around here somewhere.

    And, Nice to be here!
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Over 1500 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    The words of the Apostles are the Word of God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Blasphemy.
    Vs. 1st Thessalonians 2:13 KJV
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Not all authentic Catholic teaching is technically "dogma,"
    Is the following authentic teaching of the church at Rome concerning Mary?:

    "It is a great thing in any saint to have grace sufficient for the salvation of many souls; but to have enough to suffice for the salvation of everybody in the world is the greatest of all; and this is found in Christ and in the Blessed Virgin" (MAGNAE DEI MATRIS, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII promulgated on September 8, 1892).

    According to Rome both Mary and the Lord Jesus have enough grace to suffice for the salvation of everybody in the world.

    That contradicts what Peter said in the following passage:

    "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved"
    (Acts 4:10-12).

    Rome also teaches the following:

    "As she suffered and almost died together with her suffering and dying Son, so she surrendered her mother's rights over her Son for the salvation of the human race. And to satisfy the justice of God she sacrificed her Son, as well as she could, so that it may justly be said that she together with Christ has redeemed the human race" (The Church Teaches, Documents of the Church in English Translation, by the Jesuit fathers of St. Mary's College, copyright 1973 Tan Books and Publishers Inc., bearing the IMPRIMI POTEST, NIHIL OBSTAT, AND IMPRIMATUR of the Catholic Church, pages 210-211).

    This teaching is plure blasphemy and if you can believe this teaching your spiritual I.Q. is ZERO!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Is the following authentic teaching of the church at Rome concerning Mary?:

    "It is a great thing in any saint to have grace sufficient for the salvation of many souls; but to have enough to suffice for the salvation of everybody in the world is the greatest of all; and this is found in Christ and in the Blessed Virgin" (MAGNAE DEI MATRIS, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII promulgated on September 8, 1892).

    According to Rome both Mary and the Lord Jesus have enough grace to suffice for the salvation of everybody in the world.
    The operative words there "in Christ." Apart from Christ, Mary is nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    That contradicts what Peter said in the following passage:

    "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved"
    (Acts 4:10-12).

    Rome also teaches the following:

    "As she suffered and almost died together with her suffering and dying Son, so she surrendered her mother's rights over her Son for the salvation of the human race. And to satisfy the justice of God she sacrificed her Son, as well as she could, so that it may justly be said that she together with Christ has redeemed the human race" (The Church Teaches, Documents of the Church in English Translation, by the Jesuit fathers of St. Mary's College, copyright 1973 Tan Books and Publishers Inc., bearing the IMPRIMI POTEST, NIHIL OBSTAT, AND IMPRIMATUR of the Catholic Church, pages 210-211).
    Because she is His mother.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    This teaching is plure blasphemy and if you can believe this teaching your spiritual I.Q. is ZERO!
    Thanks.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    The operative words there "in Christ." Apart from Christ, Mary is nothing.
    You over look what else is said: "n Christ and in the Blessed Virgin":

    "It is a great thing in any saint to have grace sufficient for the salvation of many souls; but to have enough to suffice for the salvation of everybody in the world is the greatest of all; and this is found in Christ and in the Blessed Virgin"
    (MAGNAE DEI MATRIS, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII promulgated on September 8, 1892).

    It says that both Mary and Christ have enough grace to suffice for the salvation of everybody in the world. "Grace" comes to believers through the redemption of the Lord Jesus (Ro.3.24) because believers are redeemed by His blood (1 Pet.1:18-19). So Mary has nothing to do with anyone receiving salvation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Because she is His mother.
    That is not what Rome says:

    "As she suffered and almost died together with her suffering and dying Son, so she surrendered her mother's rights over her Son for the salvation of the human race. And to satisfy the justice of God she sacrificed her Son, as well as she could, so that it may justly be said that she together with Christ has redeemed the human race."

    Rome says that it is because Mary sacrificed her son that it can be said that both her and Christ redeemed the human race. And that contradicts what Peter said here:

    "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12).

    You evidently believe these blasphemous teachings of Rome and at the same time don't believe what Peter said.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    You over look what else is said: "n Christ and in the Blessed Virgin":

    "It is a great thing in any saint to have grace sufficient for the salvation of many souls; but to have enough to suffice for the salvation of everybody in the world is the greatest of all; and this is found in Christ and in the Blessed Virgin"
    (MAGNAE DEI MATRIS, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII promulgated on September 8, 1892).

    It says that both Mary and Christ have enough grace to suffice for the salvation of everybody in the world. "Grace" comes to believers through the redemption of the Lord Jesus (Ro.3.24) because believers are redeemed by His blood (1 Pet.1:18-19). So Mary has nothing to do with anyone receiving salvation.



    That is not what Rome says:

    "As she suffered and almost died together with her suffering and dying Son, so she surrendered her mother's rights over her Son for the salvation of the human race. And to satisfy the justice of God she sacrificed her Son, as well as she could, so that it may justly be said that she together with Christ has redeemed the human race."

    Rome says that it is because Mary sacrificed her son that it can be said that both her and Christ redeemed the human race. And that contradicts what Peter said here:

    "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12).

    You evidently believe these blasphemous teachings of Rome and at the same time don't believe what Peter said.
    Well Jerry, you're going to believe whatever you want to believe. If TOL's taught us nothing else, it's that.

    For Catholicism's part, there is nothing in what we believe about Mary the mother of our Lord, that takes away from all glory and honor justly due her Son; in fact, it all magnifies His glory.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    For Catholicism's part, there is nothing in what we believe about Mary the mother of our Lord, that takes away from all glory and honor justly due her Son; in fact, it all magnifies His glory.
    So the fact that Rome teaches that both Mary and Christ redeemed the world takes nothing away from the glory of the Lord Jesus despite that fact that Peter said that these is no name besides the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth whereby people are saved:

    "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12).

    Peter said there is salvation in no one else but Jesus Christ but Rome teaches that both Mary and Jesus Christ redeemed the world. The honor belongs only to the Lord Jesus but Rome teaches otherwise.

    According to Rome the honor also belongs to the queen of heaven.

  11. #41
    Over 1500 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So the fact that Rome teaches that both Mary and Christ redeemed the world takes nothing away from the glory of the Lord Jesus despite that fact that Peter said that these is no name besides the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth whereby people are saved:

    "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12).

    Peter said there is salvation in no one else but Jesus Christ but Rome teaches that both Mary and Jesus Christ redeemed the world. The honor belongs only to the Lord Jesus but Rome teaches otherwise.

    According to Rome the honor also belongs to the queen of heaven.
    Because Mary's His mom. That's just a fact. She brought Him into this world. She delivered Him as a baby, and He's a King, and that makes her the queen mother.

    You are seeing something that isn't there. Everything Catholicism believes about Mary magnifies the Lord Jesus, and never takes away from all His just glory and honor.

    Without Him, Mary is nothing.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Because Mary's His mom. That's just a fact. She brought Him into this world. She delivered Him as a baby, and He's a King, and that makes her the queen mother.
    Where do we read that she is in heaven bodily right now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    You are seeing something that isn't there. Everything Catholicism believes about Mary magnifies the Lord Jesus, and never takes away from all His just glory and honor.

    Without Him, Mary is nothing.
    It is not true that both Christ and Mary redeemed the whole world because redemption is only by blood. And Peter said that there is no other name except that of the Lord Jesus whereby people are saved but Rome teaches that Mary played a part in people's redemption.

    It does not magnify the Lord Jesus in anyway to assert that redemption was secured by anyone other than the one and only Savior.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Where do we read that she is in heaven bodily right now?



    It is not true that both Christ and Mary redeemed the whole world because redemption is only by blood. And Peter said that there is no other name except that of the Lord Jesus whereby people are saved but Rome teaches that Mary played a part in people's redemption.

    It does not magnify the Lord Jesus in anyway to assert that redemption was secured by anyone other than the one and only Savior.
    Your characterization of Catholicism is wrong. I'm just going to keep repeating that, as you keep repeating your wrong characterization of Catholicism. 'Seems fair.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Your characterization of Catholicism is wrong. I'm just going to keep repeating that, as you keep repeating your wrong characterization of Catholicism. 'Seems fair.
    I have quoted what Rome says. I made up nothing. According to Rome both the Lord Jesus and Mary redeemed the world. That is directly contradicted by Peter when he said the following:

    "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I have quoted what Rome says. I made up nothing. According to Rome both the Lord Jesus and Mary redeemed the world. That is directly contradicted by Peter when he said the following:

    "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12).
    Your characterization of Catholicism is false.

    You really leave me little choice in how to correspond with you on this topic. When I address your points, you just pretend I haven't, and repeat what you already said before, many times now.

    Your characterization of Catholicism is wrong.

    Error.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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