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Thread: Jehovah alone is the creator of the Universe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    Incorrect.

    The Greek term used here is arthrous, and is rendered as 'The Salvation', and, as you already freely admitted, it comes 'out from' the Jews.

    All NT locations of 'The Salvation', outside of John 4.22, have Jesus as the referent.

    Thus, we can be completely confident that John 4.22 is likewise discussing Jesus.
    You can be all the confident you like..... It looks to me like you're wrong.

    There is only one salvation.

    It is the salvation Jehovah commanded Jesus to teach.

    Which has ALWAYS been, to worship Jehovah alone as God.
    Deut 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah: 5 and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

    Deut 6:13 Thou shalt fear Jehovah thy God; and him shalt thou serve, and shalt swear by his name.

    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, (even) Jesus Christ.

    And since Jehovah brought Jesus into existence in Bethlehem, and about 30 years later .... when Jesus was "about 30 years old" .... (NOT "infinity") ...Jehovah anointed Jesus of Nazareth with POWER, and KNOWLEDGE, and WISDOM, and THE FEAR OF JEHOVAH.... and sent Jesus out into civilization.

    Luke 4:18-21 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because He anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised,
    19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.
    20 And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down: and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on him.
    21 And he began to say unto them, Today hath this scripture been fulfilled in your ears.

    Jehovah God sent Jesus. Jehovah God EXALTED Jesus to be Lord, King, Christ, High Priest ... etc.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    You can be all the confident you like..... It looks to me like you're wrong.
    John 4.22 was YOUR example to begin with.

    Run away from it, if you wish...



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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    John 4.22 was YOUR example to begin with.

    Run away from it, if you wish...
    Hmmmm.... apparently you missed this.

    You can be all the confident you like..... It looks to me like you're wrong.

    There is only one salvation.

    It is the salvation Jehovah commanded Jesus to teach.

    Which has ALWAYS been, to worship Jehovah alone as God.
    Deut 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah: 5 and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

    Deut 6:13 Thou shalt fear Jehovah thy God; and him shalt thou serve, and shalt swear by his name.

    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, (even) Jesus Christ.

    And since Jehovah brought Jesus into existence in Bethlehem, and about 30 years later .... when Jesus was "about 30 years old" .... (NOT "infinity") ...Jehovah anointed Jesus of Nazareth with POWER, and KNOWLEDGE, and WISDOM, and THE FEAR OF JEHOVAH.... and sent Jesus out into civilization.

    Luke 4:18-21 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because He anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised,
    19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.
    20 And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down: and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on him.
    21 And he began to say unto them, Today hath this scripture been fulfilled in your ears.

    Jehovah God sent Jesus. Jehovah God EXALTED Jesus to be Lord, King, Christ, High Priest ... etc.

    Did you see it this time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Jehovah God EXALTED Jesus to be Lord, King, Christ, High Priest ... etc.
    And Jesus (God the Word) is also YHWH the Creator (also called Jehovah). For:

    John 1:1 ¶In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . .
    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Colossians 1:12 ¶Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
    13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by bibleverse2 View Post
    And Jesus
    So far, so good.
    Quote Originally Posted by B2
    (God the Word)
    There you went off Scripture. God's words ARE God, but there is no person/being called "God the word".
    Quote Originally Posted by B2
    is also YHWH the Creator (also called Jehovah).
    Deut 18:17-18 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

    John 12:49-50 For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, He hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life eternal: the things therefore which I speak, even as the Father hath said unto me, so I speak.
    John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

    It is impossible for Jesus to be "Jehovah" because Jesus is NOT the source of the words he spoke, his God is. His FATHER is Jehovah!
    Quote Originally Posted by B2
    John 1:1 ¶In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . .
    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    Verses 1-5 are discussing God, and God's words/sayings.
    Verse 14 is stating that Jesus fulfilled God's words/sayings as a flesh and blood baby boy.
    It's VERY easy to see what John meant when he used LOGOS;
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.
    John 1:14 And the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,...
    John 2:22 ...and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
    John 4:37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.
    John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
    John 4:41 And many more believed because of his own word;
    John 4:50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.
    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life ...
    John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
    John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
    John 7:36 What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
    John 7:40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
    John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
    John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
    John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
    John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
    John 8:52 .. thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
    John 8:55 ... I know him, and keep his saying.
    John 10:19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
    John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake,..
    John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, .. hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
    John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: ...
    John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
    John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
    John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, ... if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
    John 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
    John 17:6 ... thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
    John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
    John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
    John 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
    John 19:8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;
    John 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat
    John 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?


    Quote Originally Posted by B2
    Colossians 1:12 ¶Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
    13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him . . .
    In this text we learn SEVERAL things that are useful to this topic
    Jesus is God's "dear son" .... NOT "God".
    Jesus is THE IMAGE of God .... NOT God.
    Among all the "creatures", Jesus is "the firstborn".... so, Jesus is a created being (creature), AND looking at verse 18 we see HOW he is "firstborn", (even though Adam was "the first Adam"), Jesus is "the firstborn from THE DEAD".
    Jesus died.
    The REAL Jesus, no just a "meat shell".
    God cannot die.
    Now, WHAT did Paul say Jesus DID create?
    "all things created that ARE (present tense... not 4000 years before Jesus literally existed) in heaven, and "all things created that ARE (present tense... not 4000 years before Jesus literally existed) on earth.
    SPECIFICALLY 'thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers"!
    Yes, Jesus "created" the civilization (world, Cosmos) in which Paul wrote his epistles, and the civilization (world, Cosmos) in which we live. Jesus has been GIVEN "all authority, in heaven and on earth" ...... with his God as the obvious exception.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    So far, so good.
    There you went off Scripture. God's words ARE God, but there is no person/being called "God the word".
    Deut 18:17-18 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

    John 12:49-50 For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, He hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life eternal: the things therefore which I speak, even as the Father hath said unto me, so I speak.
    John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

    It is impossible for Jesus to be "Jehovah" because Jesus is NOT the source of the words he spoke, his God is. His FATHER is Jehovah!
    Verses 1-5 are discussing God, and God's words/sayings.
    Verse 14 is stating that Jesus fulfilled God's words/sayings as a flesh and blood baby boy.
    It's VERY easy to see what John meant when he used LOGOS;
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.
    John 1:14 And the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,...
    John 2:22 ...and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
    John 4:37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.
    John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
    John 4:41 And many more believed because of his own word;
    John 4:50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.
    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life ...
    John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
    John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
    John 7:36 What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
    John 7:40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
    John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
    John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
    John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
    John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
    John 8:52 .. thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
    John 8:55 ... I know him, and keep his saying.
    John 10:19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
    John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake,..
    John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, .. hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
    John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: ...
    John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
    John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
    John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, ... if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
    John 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
    John 17:6 ... thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
    John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
    John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
    John 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
    John 19:8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;
    John 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat
    John 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?


    In this text we learn SEVERAL things that are useful to this topic
    Jesus is God's "dear son" .... NOT "God".
    Jesus is THE IMAGE of God .... NOT God.
    Among all the "creatures", Jesus is "the firstborn".... so, Jesus is a created being (creature), AND looking at verse 18 we see HOW he is "firstborn", (even though Adam was "the first Adam"), Jesus is "the firstborn from THE DEAD".
    Jesus died.
    The REAL Jesus, no just a "meat shell".
    God cannot die.
    Now, WHAT did Paul say Jesus DID create?
    "all things created that ARE (present tense... not 4000 years before Jesus literally existed) in heaven, and "all things created that ARE (present tense... not 4000 years before Jesus literally existed) on earth.
    SPECIFICALLY 'thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers"!
    Yes, Jesus "created" the civilization (world, Cosmos) in which Paul wrote his epistles, and the civilization (world, Cosmos) in which we live. Jesus has been GIVEN "all authority, in heaven and on earth" ...... with his God as the obvious exception.
    Jesus is creator.

    Colossians 1:15-20 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    15 [a]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For [b]by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He [c]is before all things, and in Him all things [d]hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For [e]it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the [f]fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in [g]heaven.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post

    Deut 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah: 5 and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
    The Shema is Triune to begin with.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Jesus is creator.
    Of course he is.
    He created the civilization in which we live, every throne, dominion, ruler and authority.

    Col 1:15-18
    Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


    HOWEVER, Jesus is NOT the Creator of the universe, that's his God;
    Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
    2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
    3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
    4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
    5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
    6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
    7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
    8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.

    Acts 4:24-30 And they, when they heard it, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou that didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is:
    25 who by the holy spirit, (by) the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say, Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things?
    26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against His Anointed:
    27 for of a truth in this city against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
    28 to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy council foreordained to come to pass.
    29 And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness,
    30 while Thy stretchest forth Thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus.


    Acts 17:24-31
    24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
    25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
    26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
    27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though he be not far from every one of us:
    28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
    29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
    30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
    31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    The Shema is Triune to begin with.
    This is the "black knight" defense, from Monty Python, nothing but Bluster.

    Do you know what "one" means?

    Or, "only"?
    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post

    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


    All five NT locations of αληθινον, existing outside of John 17.3, have The Son as the referent. Therefore, we can conclude that John 17.3 must likewise pertain to The Son.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    This is the "black knight" defense, from Monty Python, nothing but Bluster.

    Do you know what "one" means?

    Or, "only"?
    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    As has been pointed out many times already, John 17:3 does not exclude either the Son or the Holy Spirit from also being "the ONLY true God," especially if God is triune.

    If God is unitarian, then you need to provide evidence to such, because John 17:3 is circumstantial evidence at best, and trinitarian at worst (for your position).

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    Over 3000 post club Apple7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    HOWEVER, Jesus is NOT the Creator of the universe, that's his God;

    Jesus creates Universe Col. 1.16


    οτι εν αυτω εκτισθη τα παντα εν τοις ουρανοις και επι της γης τα ορατα και τα αορατα ειτε θρονοι ειτε κυριοτητες ειτε αρχαι ειτε εξουσιαι τα παντα δι αυτου και εις αυτον εκτισται

    hoti en autō ektisthē ta panta en tois ouranois kai epi tēs gēs ta horata kai ta aorata eite thronoi eite kyriotētes eite archai eite exousiai ta panta di autou kai eis auton ektistai

    For by Him all things were created; by that in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or rulers, or magistrates, or authorities; all things were created through Him and for Him. (Colossians 1.16)


    Three separate and distinct primary prepositions are used to describe Jesus’ creative power (i.e. ‘en’, ‘di’, & ‘eis’).

    Three separate prepositions were used here to make it crystal clear that three separate modes of operation are in effect at the same time.

    In each case, the preposition is flanked by the masculine singular, ‘auto’.

    The first instance of ‘auto’ is in the dative singular masculine, indicating that Jesus is the object of the primary preposition, ‘en’, rendered as ‘by’.

    The second instance of ‘auto’ is in the genitive singular masculine, indicating that Jesus is in direct possession of the creative act – i.e. He is in complete control of it – and is attached to the preposition ‘di’ rendered as, ‘through’.

    The third instance of ‘auto’ is in the accusative singular masculine, again indicating that Jesus is the direct object of the preposition, ‘eis’, rendered as ‘for’.

    Thus, from this Biblical verse alone, creation is By, Through, and For Jesus Christ all at the same time…indicating, yet, again, that He is the Triune creator God of the Universe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    Jesus creates Universe Col. 1.16


    οτι εν αυτω εκτισθη τα παντα εν τοις ουρανοις και επι της γης τα ορατα και τα αορατα ειτε θρονοι ειτε κυριοτητες ειτε αρχαι ειτε εξουσιαι τα παντα δι αυτου και εις αυτον εκτισται

    hoti en autō ektisthē ta panta en tois ouranois kai epi tēs gēs ta horata kai ta aorata eite thronoi eite kyriotētes eite archai eite exousiai ta panta di autou kai eis auton ektistai

    For by Him all things were created; by that in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or rulers, or magistrates, or authorities; all things were created through Him and for Him. (Colossians 1.16)


    Three separate and distinct primary prepositions are used to describe Jesus’ creative power (i.e. ‘en’, ‘di’, & ‘eis’).

    Three separate prepositions were used here to make it crystal clear that three separate modes of operation are in effect at the same time.

    In each case, the preposition is flanked by the masculine singular, ‘auto’.

    The first instance of ‘auto’ is in the dative singular masculine, indicating that Jesus is the object of the primary preposition, ‘en’, rendered as ‘by’.

    The second instance of ‘auto’ is in the genitive singular masculine, indicating that Jesus is in direct possession of the creative act – i.e. He is in complete control of it – and is attached to the preposition ‘di’ rendered as, ‘through’.

    The third instance of ‘auto’ is in the accusative singular masculine, again indicating that Jesus is the direct object of the preposition, ‘eis’, rendered as ‘for’.

    Thus, from this Biblical verse alone, creation is By, Through, and For Jesus Christ all at the same time…indicating, yet, again, that He is the Triune creator God of the Universe.
    But for the effect of "the god of this world", belief that Jesus is YHWH would be αὐτό-matic, from just reading Colossians 1:16!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    But for the effect of "the god of this world", belief that Jesus is YHWH would be αὐτό-matic, from just reading Colossians 1:16!
    I heard Pastor Enyart say something that caught my attention while listening to one of his Bible Studies.

    He said that the god of this world is whatever rules over man.

    For example, liberalism is one "god" of this world. Abortion could be another.

    I don't believe that Satan is locked away yet (that comes later, after the Great Tribulation), but I do understand some of the reasoning behind why Satan is not "the god (little 'g') of this world."

    Guess I'll have to study up some more on this, maybe re-listen to make sure I heard Bob right...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    This is the "black knight" defense, from Monty Python, nothing but Bluster.

    Do you know what "one" means?

    Or, "only"?
    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Obviously YOU do not know what "only" means, since you can't tell the difference between

    • God the Father is "the only true God" (which is Biblical), and
    • ONLY God the Father is "the only true God" (which is your anti-Biblical presupposition).


    Too bad for your unitarian presupposition that neither John 17:3, nor any other Bible verse, says that ONLY God the Father is "the only true God".

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