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    Jehovah alone is the creator of the Universe.

    Not only do the Scriptures directly state that Jehovah/YHVH God is the Creator, many of those same Scriptures identify Jesus as Jehovah's servant.

    Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
    2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
    3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
    4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
    5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
    6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
    7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
    8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.

    Acts 4:24-30 And they, when they heard it, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou that didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is:
    25 who by the holy spirit, (by) the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say, Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things?
    26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against His Anointed:
    27 for of a truth in this city against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
    28 to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy council foreordained to come to pass.
    29 And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness,
    30 while Thy stretchest forth Thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus.

    Acts 17:24-31
    24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
    25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
    26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
    27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though he be not far from every one of us:
    28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
    29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
    30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
    31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.

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    Colossians 1:9-20 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Preeminence of Christ
    9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and [a]conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption [b]through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [c]principalities or [d]powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Colossians 1:9-20 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Preeminence of Christ
    9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and [a]conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption [b]through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [c]principalities or [d]powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
    Read it carefully:

    Is Jesus

    a. the invisible God

    b. the image of the invisible God



    In your version, who is the firstborn over all creation?

    a. God the Father

    b. Jesus the son of God

    Let me clarify

    who was born?

    a. God the Father

    b. Jesus the son of God the Father

    Your threeology causes more problems than it fixes
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Not only do the Scriptures directly state that Jehovah/YHVH God is the Creator, many of those same Scriptures identify Jesus as Jehovah's servant.






    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
    Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post


    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
    Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
    1. The grammar and usage of John shows that he intended "and the Word was a god." See my study of 'Seven Lessons': http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot....ohn-11c-a.html

    2. Being the firstborn of creation, Jesus was there at the beginning of the creation of the universe.

    3. All things came into existence through (di') him. Jesus was not the creator, but the one through whom the Creator worked.

    Notice how “through” solves any possible confusion in the following scriptures. Even though the Law was spoken of as “the Law of Jehovah” - 1 Chron. 16:40, and “the law of the God of heaven” - Ezra 7:12, and we are specifically told “there is only one Lawgiver ...” - James 4:12, NASB, we still see another person “giving the law”! Is that person, then, also equally God?


    Yes, the inspired scriptures also tell us, “Did not Moses give you the law?” - John 7:19 NASB. And the same “Law of Jehovah” is also called “the Law of Moses” - Malachi 4:4. Must we conclude then, trinitarian-style, that Moses is Jehovah the God of heaven? Of course not!!


    Even if we were unable to figure it out on our own, scriptures such as John 1:17 (“The law was given [from God] through [di'/dia] Moses”) clearly explain it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    1. The grammar and usage of John shows that he intended "and the Word was a god." See my study of 'Seven Lessons':
    Jesus is not discussed until verse 7. John is discussing God's logos ... God's words. These verses make PERFECT sense given that understanding of logos .... which is established by the other 35+ times John uses logos in his gospel.
    Over the roughly 1900 years since John wrote his gospel, poorly converted disciples of Greek philosophy perverted the clear, simple meaning of John 1, infusing it with pagan teachings.
    The Scripture, and God's creation clearly show there is no such thing as literally existing before birth.

    Quote Originally Posted by t2
    2. Being the firstborn of creation, Jesus was there at the beginning of the creation of the universe.
    No. Jesus was the first born of the NEW creation,
    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.We KNOW Jesus wasn't created before Adam, or Adam would have been "the second man Adam"..... which Paul clearly states Christ is the 2nd man Adam. (1 Cor 15)


    and Jehovah states Jesus didn't literally exist until Bethlehem even FOR HIM, JEHOVAH, exactly as Jehovah foretold from "of old, from everlasting";
    Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto ME that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.


    Quote Originally Posted by t2
    3. All things came into existence through (di') him.
    True, and context is critical. Jesus is NEVER credited with the creation of the universe, Jesus IS credited with the creation of powers, principalities, thrones and dominions following his death, burial and resurrection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Jesus is not discussed until verse 7. John is discussing God's logos ... God's words.



    These verses make PERFECT sense given that understanding of logos .... which is established by the other 35+ times John uses logos in his gospel.
    Over the roughly 1900 years since John wrote his gospel, poorly converted disciples of Greek philosophy perverted the clear, simple meaning of John 1, infusing it with pagan teachings.
    The Scripture, and God's creation clearly show there is no such thing as literally existing before birth.
    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


    and Jehovah states Jesus didn't literally exist until Bethlehem even FOR HIM, JEHOVAH, exactly as Jehovah foretold from "of old, from everlasting";
    Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto ME that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
    Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
    True, and context is critical. Jesus is NEVER credited with the creation of the universe, Jesus IS credited with the creation of powers, principalities, thrones and dominions following his death, burial and resurrection.
    Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    Of course.
    That's what I said.
    God's words were in the begining, were with God, and ARE God. God's words DEFINE Him to us.

    Quote Originally Posted by w2g
    Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
    Yes, the GLORY that Christ would be, WAS with God, before Jesus even existed.

    Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

    Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Paul was stating that EVERY throne, dominion, principalities and power ... CURRENTLY in heaven, or CURRENTLY on earth, WERE created by Jesus, and for Jesus.
    This is a stark contrast from Jesus creating the universe, it is acknowledging Jesus CREATED the powers that existed as Paul wrote the Book, and still to this day.

    We have already been told, beyond doubt, that Christ's GOD is the Creator;

    Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
    2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
    3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
    4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
    5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
    6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
    7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
    8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.

    Acts 4:24-30 And they, when they heard it, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou that didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is:
    25 who by the holy spirit, (by) the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say, Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things?
    26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against His Anointed:
    27 for of a truth in this city against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
    28 to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy council foreordained to come to pass.
    29 And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness,
    30 while Thy stretchest forth Thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus.


    Acts 17:24-31
    24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
    25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
    26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
    27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though he be not far from every one of us:
    28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
    29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
    30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
    31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.

    So, it's obvious, these verses destroy any "Jesus as creator of the universe" theory.

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    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
    Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    1. The grammar and usage of John shows that he intended "and the Word was a god." See my study of 'Seven Lessons': http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot....ohn-11c-a.html
    No and thinking that is only going to lead to a cascade of errors .
    2. Being the firstborn of creation, Jesus was there at the beginning of the creation of the universe.
    No , a lie blended with truth
    Jesus has always existed as Jesus is God
    3. All things came into existence through (di') him. Jesus was not the creator, but the one through whom the Creator worked.
    since you have the first verse wrong, you have cascading errors from there
    get this right "the Word was God" then you might get to the truth

    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


    Notice how “through” solves any possible confusion in the following scriptures. Even though the Law was spoken of as “the Law of Jehovah” - 1 Chron. 16:40, and “the law of the God of heaven” - Ezra 7:12, and we are specifically told “there is only one Lawgiver ...” - James 4:12, NASB, we still see another person “giving the law”! Is that person, then, also equally God?
    Yes, the inspired scriptures also tell us, “Did not Moses give you the law?” - John 7:19 NASB. And the same “Law of Jehovah” is also called “the Law of Moses” - Malachi 4:4. Must we conclude then, trinitarian-style, that Moses is Jehovah the God of heaven? Of course not!!
    Even if we were unable to figure it out on our own, scriptures such as John 1:17 (“The law was given [from God] through [di'/dia] Moses”) clearly explain it.
    since you have the first verse wrong, you have cascading errors from there
    but speaking of commandments

    Jesus here is saying " his commandment"
    Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me."

    Jesus here is saying " my commandments "
    Joh 14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

    both verses can only be true if Jesus is God

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    1. The grammar and usage of John shows that he intended "and the Word was a god." See my study of 'Seven Lessons': http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot....ohn-11c-a.html

    2. Being the firstborn of creation, Jesus was there at the beginning of the creation of the universe.

    3. All things came into existence through (di') him. Jesus was not the creator, but the one through whom the Creator worked.

    Notice how “through” solves any possible confusion in the following scriptures. Even though the Law was spoken of as “the Law of Jehovah” - 1 Chron. 16:40, and “the law of the God of heaven” - Ezra 7:12, and we are specifically told “there is only one Lawgiver ...” - James 4:12, NASB, we still see another person “giving the law”! Is that person, then, also equally God?


    Yes, the inspired scriptures also tell us, “Did not Moses give you the law?” - John 7:19 NASB. And the same “Law of Jehovah” is also called “the Law of Moses” - Malachi 4:4. Must we conclude then, trinitarian-style, that Moses is Jehovah the God of heaven? Of course not!!


    Even if we were unable to figure it out on our own, scriptures such as John 1:17 (“The law was given [from God] through [di'/dia] Moses”) clearly explain it.
    I offer the following grammatical explanation of John 1:1.

    "First of all, the same Greek word is used in both occurrences of the word "God" in John 1:1. This same word is used in many contexts, whether it refers to the Only True God or whether it is referring to a false god - such as a man-made god (1 Cor. 8:5) or Satan as the ‘god of this age’ (2 Cor. 4:4). The apparent differences in spelling between the word ‘God’ in the phrase ‘and the Word was God’ (‘theos’) and in other places, (even in the previous phrase, ‘and the Word was with God’ (‘theon’)) is due to inflection in the Greek language. Each Greek noun normally has 8 or 9 forms (cases & number) in which it can appear. (See my page on ‘Inflection’ and ‘Cases’ on the Web site). In the first instance in John 1:1 it is the object of preposition and thus is in the accusative case. In the phrase in question, it is in the nominative case (indicating the subject or predicate nominative - equal to the subject). But it is the same word for ‘God’, and in both phrases here indicates the One and Only True God. So the apparent difference is spelling is not because ‘theos’ is a different word than ‘theon’, but is a different form of the identical word." (ref... Creative Commons Attribution...Corey Keating)

    The final results, the Jehovah WItnesses are the only ones to translate "a God" as you have.

    John 1:1 ..."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

    Since Jesus is the Author, then He said what HE meant and meant what He said and woe to those that add or take way from HIS WORD. Rev 22:18-19

    Blade

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    Hi, Blade.

    It is in the link to my own personal study of 'seven lessons' study that the grammatical proof for the meaning of theos in John 1:1c is found. If you won't read it carefully, you won't have any idea of what I have found. Your own ideas and your quotes from others will miss the mark.

    In fact the quotation you provided has nothing in it to show how theos in John 1:1c should be translated.

    As for JW's being "the only ones to translate 'a God,'"

    Even the trinitarian Greek expert, W. E. Vine, (although, for obvious reasons, he chooses not to accept it as the proper interpretation) admits that it is literally translated “a god was the Word”.- p. 490, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Thomas Nelson, Inc., 1983 printing.

    Equally trinitarian Professor C. H. Dodd, director of the New English Bible project, also admits this is a proper literal translation:
    “A possible translation [for John 1:1c] ... would be, ‘The Word was a god.’ As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted.” - Technical Papers for the Bible Translator, vol. 28, Jan. 1977.

    The reason Prof. Dodd still rejects “a god” as the actual meaning intended by John is simply because it upsets his trinitarian interpretations of John’s Gospel! - "The reason why it is inacceptable [sic.] is that it runs counter to the current of Johannine thought, and indeed of Christian thought as a whole." - Technical Papers for the Bible Translator, vol. 28, Jan. 1977.

    Trinitarian NT scholar Prof. Murray J. Harris also admits that grammatically John 1:1c may be properly translated, ‘the Word was a god,’ but his trinitarian bias makes him claim that “John’s monotheism” will not allow such an interpretation. - p. 60, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992.

    And Dr. J. D. BeDuhn in his Truth in Translation states about John 1:1c:
    “ ‘And the Word was a god.’ The preponderance of evidence from Greek grammar… supports this translation.” - p. 132, University Press of America, Inc., 2003.

    Trinitarian Dr. Robert Young admits that a more literal translation of John 1:1c is “and a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word” - p. 54, (‘New Covenant’ section), Young’s Concise Critical Bible Commentary, Baker Book House, 1977 printing.

    And highly respected trinitarian scholar, author, and Bible translator, Dr. William Barclay wrote:
    "Nowhere does the New Testament identify Jesus with God." - William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, pg 50, William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, 1977. And,

    “You could translate [John 1:1c], so far as the Greek goes: ‘the Word was a God’; but it seems obvious that this is so much against the whole of the rest of the New Testament that it is wrong.” - p. 205, Ever yours, edited by C. L. Rawlins, Labarum Publ., 1985.

    Only the JW's?

  18. #12
    Over 3000 post club Apple7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    Hi, Blade.

    It is in the link to my own personal study of 'seven lessons' study that the grammatical proof for the meaning of theos in John 1:1c is found. If you won't read it carefully, you won't have any idea of what I have found. Your own ideas and your quotes from others will miss the mark.

    In fact the quotation you provided has nothing in it to show how theos in John 1:1c should be translated.

    As for JW's being "the only ones to translate 'a God,'"

    Even the trinitarian Greek expert, W. E. Vine, (although, for obvious reasons, he chooses not to accept it as the proper interpretation) admits that it is literally translated “a god was the Word”.- p. 490, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Thomas Nelson, Inc., 1983 printing.

    Equally trinitarian Professor C. H. Dodd, director of the New English Bible project, also admits this is a proper literal translation:
    “A possible translation [for John 1:1c] ... would be, ‘The Word was a god.’ As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted.” - Technical Papers for the Bible Translator, vol. 28, Jan. 1977.

    The reason Prof. Dodd still rejects “a god” as the actual meaning intended by John is simply because it upsets his trinitarian interpretations of John’s Gospel! - "The reason why it is inacceptable [sic.] is that it runs counter to the current of Johannine thought, and indeed of Christian thought as a whole." - Technical Papers for the Bible Translator, vol. 28, Jan. 1977.

    Trinitarian NT scholar Prof. Murray J. Harris also admits that grammatically John 1:1c may be properly translated, ‘the Word was a god,’ but his trinitarian bias makes him claim that “John’s monotheism” will not allow such an interpretation. - p. 60, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992.

    And Dr. J. D. BeDuhn in his Truth in Translation states about John 1:1c:
    “ ‘And the Word was a god.’ The preponderance of evidence from Greek grammar… supports this translation.” - p. 132, University Press of America, Inc., 2003.

    Trinitarian Dr. Robert Young admits that a more literal translation of John 1:1c is “and a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word” - p. 54, (‘New Covenant’ section), Young’s Concise Critical Bible Commentary, Baker Book House, 1977 printing.

    And highly respected trinitarian scholar, author, and Bible translator, Dr. William Barclay wrote:
    "Nowhere does the New Testament identify Jesus with God." - William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, pg 50, William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, 1977. And,

    “You could translate [John 1:1c], so far as the Greek goes: ‘the Word was a God’; but it seems obvious that this is so much against the whole of the rest of the New Testament that it is wrong.” - p. 205, Ever yours, edited by C. L. Rawlins, Labarum Publ., 1985.

    Only the JW's?

    Wow....do you think that you could at least provide some references from the 21st century?!


    How about the JW's Knight in Shining Armor?

    Arguably one of the best NT Greek scholars alive today, Dr. Bart Ehrman.

    Dr. Ehrman has ALWAYS been promoted by witnesses, as they think that he supports their scriptural worldview regarding John 1....well, does he?

    Let's look...






     Bart Ehrman January 7, 2013
    "I don’t have an informed view of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, although it’s true that Arians believed that Jesus was God but not that he was equal with God the Father or co-eternal with him. John 1:1 — I think the proper translation is “The Word was God.” (In this Gospel Jesus appears to be equal with God — here I disagree with the Arian view — but he is not *identical* with God, a major point I think.)"
    http://ehrmanblog.org/my-next-book/


    What can you do now, witness?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    ...to show how theos in John 1:1c should be translated.

    As for JW's being "the only ones to translate 'a God,'"
    Nobody TRANSLATES Θεὸς, in Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος, "a god", though some assert, falsely, that they do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    Even the trinitarian Greek expert, W. E. Vine, (although, for obvious reasons, he chooses not to accept it as the proper interpretation) admits that it is literally translated “a god was the Word”.- p. 490, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Thomas Nelson, Inc., 1983 printing.
    False. And that is why you did not quote what Vine wrote:

    To translate it literally, "a god was the Word," is entirely misleading.
    I take Vine, here, to be using the word 'translate' in a way similar to how some Christians sometimes refer to Russellites as "JWs" or "Jehovah's Witnesses". No Christian really thinks that you and the Watchtower Society folks are Jehovah's witnesses. Nobody can really TRANSLATE Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος as "a god was the word".

    So, you can cross Vine off your little list...er, I mean, torture-stake Vine off your little list. He's just one example of somebody who, like yourself, and everyone else, actually does not translate θεὸς, "a god".

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    Equally trinitarian Professor C. H. Dodd, director of the New English Bible project, also admits this is a proper literal translation:
    “A possible translation [for John 1:1c] ... would be, ‘The Word was a god.’ As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted.” - Technical Papers for the Bible Translator, vol. 28, Jan. 1977.
    Since Greek has no indefinite article, it is absolutely impossible that 'The Word was a god' could be a word-for-word translation of θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

    • What's the English word FOR the Greek word θεὸς? GOD.
    • What's the English word FOR the Greek word ἦν? WAS.
    • What's the English word FOR the Greek word ὁ? THE.
    • What's the English word FOR the Greek word λόγος? WORD.
    • What's the Greek word FOR the English word a? That's right! NO Greek word is FOR the English word a!

    NO English phrase that contains the article a, or an, will EVER be a word-for-word translation of ANY Greek phrase. So much for "The Word was a god" being a word-for-word translation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    The reason Prof. Dodd still rejects “a god” as the actual meaning intended by John is simply because it upsets his trinitarian interpretations of John’s Gospel! - "The reason why it is inacceptable [sic.] is that it runs counter to the current of Johannine thought, and indeed of Christian thought as a whole." - Technical Papers for the Bible Translator, vol. 28, Jan. 1977.
    Weren't you supposed to be giving examples of non-Russellites who, according to you, translate Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος, "the word was a god"? Yet, here, you just gave an example of another non-Russellite who, as you even admit, "rejects" that it is to be translated as such, and who, thus, does not translate it so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    Trinitarian NT scholar Prof. Murray J. Harris also admits that grammatically John 1:1c may be properly translated, ‘the Word was a god,’ but his trinitarian bias makes him claim that “John’s monotheism” will not allow such an interpretation. - p. 60, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992.
    Why did you not quote his actual words, in which (you claim) he admits what you teach? Quote his exact words, wherein you claim that he translates Θεὸς, in Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος, "a god".

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    And Dr. J. D. BeDuhn in his Truth in Translation states about John 1:1c:
    “ ‘And the Word was a god.’ The preponderance of evidence from Greek grammar… supports this translation.” - p. 132, University Press of America, Inc., 2003.
    What "preponderance of evidence" did this guy provide? The same list of citations of scholars YOU'VE just handed us--minus himself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    Trinitarian Dr. Robert Young admits that a more literal translation of John 1:1c is “and a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word” - p. 54, (‘New Covenant’ section), Young’s Concise Critical Bible Commentary, Baker Book House, 1977 printing.
    The phrase, "a god", LITERALLY NEVER CAN BE a literal translation of θεὸς, since Greek hasn't an indefinite article.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    And highly respected trinitarian scholar, author, and Bible translator, Dr. William Barclay wrote:
    "Nowhere does the New Testament identify Jesus with God." - William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, pg 50, William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, 1977.
    If, by 'God', Barclay meant God the Father, what's the problem? No Trinitarian identifies, or believes that the Bible identifies, Jesus with God the Father. Rather, to the contrary, every Trinitarian denies, and knows that the Bible denies, that Jesus is God the Father. Such denial is a fundamental tenet of Trinitarianism; sans that denial, one is not a Trinitarian.

    If, by 'God', Barclay meant YHWH, then, when he wrote that, he was decidely NOT a Trinitarian, and was, rather, an anti-Trinitarian, and of no use to you, here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    And,

    “You could translate [John 1:1c], so far as the Greek goes: ‘the Word was a God’; but it seems obvious that this is so much against the whole of the rest of the New Testament that it is wrong.” - p. 205, Ever yours, edited by C. L. Rawlins, Labarum Publ., 1985.
    Who, having a high view of the internal coherence of Scripture, would ever commend Barclay as being one who has a high view of Scripture? Everybody who knows that the New Testament is God-breathed, and that the New Testament teaches Trinitarianism, knows that the New Testament never denies Trinitarianism. I, for one, do not recall having ever heard that Barclay was supposed to be a Trinitarian, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    Only the JW's?
    Rather, NOT EVEN the "JWs". Nobody has ever TRANSLATED Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος as "the word was a god".

    And, even were it possible to TRANSLATE Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος as "the word was a god", that STILL could not contradict Trinitarianism. For, last I checked, YHWH is a god. Do you disagree? Is YHWH not a god?

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  22. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post


    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
    Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
    If indeed Jesus is God and the word is Jesus then we could read the above as

    In the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with Jesus and Jesus was Jesus.

    He was in the beginning with Jesus.

    How is that for rational thinking? Your theology not mine.
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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    Isa 54.5

    For your Makers (plural) are your husbands (plural); Yahweh of Hosts is His name; and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of all the earth.

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