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Thread: Is the Eucharist another golden calf?

  1. #16
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    . . . unless the bread and wine Is Jesus in some way.
    No, it is still unreasonable to worship the bread and the wine, even if it is Jesus in some way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    I read Scripture as if ... whenever Christ Jesus is called the Son of God, He is being called God.
    Yes, you read scripture with your mind blinded by the things you were taught to believe instead of what is actually written.

    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Because I agree with the first clause of your sentence, I ask, Is He not present in the same way, at all other times, in your view?
    Jesus is present with the believers during Holy Communion in the same way as He is present with the believers whenever they are gathered together.
    There does not have to be bread and wine for Holy Communion for Jesus to be present with the believers.

    Matthew 18:20
    20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Catholics and Orthodox Christians believe the same thing; Catholics and Orthodox all together constituting 3/5 to 2/3 of all the world's Christians.
    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    The Bible shows over and over again that the beliefs of the majority are usually damnable heresies, especially when those beliefs come from the leaders of an organized religion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    So you're making the argument from popularity. It's a fallacy. Who or how many people believe some thing to be true, has zero bearing on the truth or falsity of that thing.
    Actually, the argument from popularity was your argument, your fallacy.
    My point is that you can't rely upon how popular a religious doctrine is, since most of the popular religious doctrines are false teachings that lead a person to their own destruction.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    No, it is still unreasonable to worship the bread and the wine, even if it is Jesus in some way.
    even the orthodox insist there is the divine in the ikon...the Romans insist it is only veneration they do...

    But even pagans claim they don’t actually worship the rock or tree but the power it represents...through it to its prototype or something catechistic like that...


    Yes, you read scripture with your mind blinded by the things you were taught to believe instead of what is actually written.


    Jesus is present with the believers during Holy Communion in the same way as He is present with the believers whenever they are gathered together.
    There does not have to be bread and wine for Holy Communion for Jesus to be present with the believers.

    Matthew 18:20
    20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.



    Actually, the argument from popularity was your argument, your fallacy.
    My point is that you can't rely upon how popular a religious doctrine is, since most of the popular religious doctrines are false teachings that lead a person to their own destruction.
    They actually blame Him His becoming incarnate for overturning and abrogating the “make no image law” and now are able to make all manner of objects and tools to assist the mass...because apparently He does need materials made from human hands for worship...and not just spirit and truth...

    Daniel was right...indeed he would think to change both times and law...

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    Over 1500 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    The symbology of the Lord's Supper was well known even several hundred years after the crucifixion.


    EUSEBIUS: SON OF PAMPHILUS 1 - THE PROOF OF THE GOSPEL - CHAPTER 10 (written around 312 CE)

    As we have received a memorial of this offering which we celebrate on a table by means of symbols of His Body and saving Blood according to the laws of the new covenant, we are taught again by the prophet David to say:

    "5. Thou hast prepared a table before me in the face of my persecutors |. Thou hast anointed my head with oil |, and thy cup cheers me as the strongest (wine). |"


    The error that the symbols were really the body and blood of Jesus had been gaining supporters after 150 CE, but the doctrine of the Real Presence finds its true start in 831 CE when Paschasius Radbertus wrote On the Body and Blood of the Lord.
    Ignatius is very clear in his passage concerning the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and that was in AD 107. Eusebius was familiar with Ignatius, and I don't know why he wouldn't have addressed the passage in question, if he intends to contradict what Ignatius wrote. Also, 'The Proof of the Gospel' as a whole is to me, ambiguous on the point. Yes, the word 'symbol' is employed, but also the Eucharist is referred to as a bona fide Sacrifice to God, which is only possible if the Eucharist is more than just a memorial, imo.

    Also, you clearly don't take this document as a whole as authoritative in any sense, since he refers to Christ Jesus as God in the flesh right at the beginning of Chapter 1; this source for you is already to be taken with a grain of salt. idk why you'd put any stock in it.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Over 1500 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    No, it is still unreasonable to worship the bread and the wine, even if it is Jesus in some way.
    Self-evidently false. If the Eucharist is Jesus in some way, then it is obviously reasonable to worship Him in the Eucharist.
    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Yes, you read scripture with your mind blinded by the things you were taught to believe instead of what is actually written.
    False, and begging the question. What you say is only true if you're right, which you have not established.
    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Jesus is present with the believers during Holy Communion in the same way as He is present with the believers whenever they are gathered together.
    There does not have to be bread and wine for Holy Communion for Jesus to be present with the believers.

    Matthew 18:20
    20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

    OK.

    I know you don't agree, but for the sake of clarity I inform you, that the Church's magisterium, and the Orthodox bishops, teach that Matthew 18:20 KJV concerns especially the Eucharist and the Mass.
    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Actually, the argument from popularity was your argument, your fallacy.
    I didn't make an argument. I stated a fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    My point is that you can't rely upon how popular a religious doctrine is [to determine its truth]
    Agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    ... most of the popular religious doctrines are false teachings that lead a person to their own destruction.
    Disagreed.

    For example, the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, the Ascension, Christ's Resurrection, that Christians when able to ought to regularly go to Mass, that salvation /membership in the Church depends upon faith alone, etc., are all popular religious doctrines.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

  5. #20
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Ignatius is very clear in his passage concerning the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and that was in AD 107. Eusebius was familiar with Ignatius, and I don't know why he wouldn't have addressed the passage in question, if he intends to contradict what Ignatius wrote.
    Eusebius was stating what he knew and understood.
    Making those statements does not require refuting the statements of others that you don't support.

    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    the Eucharist is referred to as a bona fide Sacrifice to God, which is only possible if the Eucharist is more than just a memorial, imo.
    Are you aware of the bread sacrifices from the law?

    Leviticus 7:11-15 NIV
    11 “‘These are the regulations for the fellowship offering anyone may present to the Lord:
    12 “‘If they offer it as an expression of thankfulness, then along with this thank offering they are to offer thick loaves made without yeast and with olive oil mixed in, thin loaves made without yeast and brushed with oil, and thick loaves of the finest flour well-kneaded and with oil mixed in.
    13 Along with their fellowship offering of thanksgiving they are to present an offering with thick loaves of bread made with yeast.
    14 They are to bring one of each kind as an offering, a contribution to the Lord; it belongs to the priest who splashes the blood of the fellowship offering against the altar.
    15 The meat of their fellowship offering of thanksgiving must be eaten on the day it is offered; they must leave none of it till morning.

    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  6. #21
    Over 1500 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Eusebius was stating what he knew and understood.
    Making those statements does not require refuting the statements of others that you don't support.
    No, but it sure would have made sense, since he included Ignatius in his Ecclesiastical History.
    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Are you aware of the bread sacrifices from the law?

    Leviticus 7:11-15 NIV
    11 “‘These are the regulations for the fellowship offering anyone may present to the Lord:
    12 “‘If they offer it as an expression of thankfulness, then along with this thank offering they are to offer thick loaves made without yeast and with olive oil mixed in, thin loaves made without yeast and brushed with oil, and thick loaves of the finest flour well-kneaded and with oil mixed in.
    13 Along with their fellowship offering of thanksgiving they are to present an offering with thick loaves of bread made with yeast.
    14 They are to bring one of each kind as an offering, a contribution to the Lord; it belongs to the priest who splashes the blood of the fellowship offering against the altar.
    15 The meat of their fellowship offering of thanksgiving must be eaten on the day it is offered; they must leave none of it till morning.
    Yes I am, and I am also aware of the shewbread.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

  7. #22
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    ...most of the popular religious doctrines are false teachings that lead a person to their own destruction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    For example, the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, the Ascension, Christ's Resurrection, that Christians when able to ought to regularly go to Mass, that salvation /membership in the Church depends upon faith alone, etc., are all popular religious doctrines.
    You are proving my point.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Yes I am, and I am also aware of the shewbread.
    I am not referring to the shewbread.


    The bread and the wine are to accompany the sacrifice of the lamb, they are not the lamb.

    Numbers 15:1-5 NIV
    1 The Lord said to Moses,
    2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘After you enter the land I am giving you as a home
    3 and you present to the Lord food offerings from the herd or the flock, as an aroma pleasing to the Lord—whether burnt offerings or sacrifices, for special vows or freewill offerings or festival offerings—
    4 then the person who brings an offering shall present to the Lord a grain offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of the finest flour mixed with a quarter of a hin[b] of olive oil.
    5 With each lamb for the burnt offering or the sacrifice, prepare a quarter of a hin of wine as a drink offering.

    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Over 1500 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    You are proving my point.
    So you're on record now, as calling the Virgin Birth, the Ascension, and Christ's Resurrection, "false teachings that lead a person to their own destruction?"
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    I am not referring to the shewbread.


    The bread and the wine are to accompany the sacrifice of the lamb, they are not the lamb.

    Numbers 15:1-5 NIV
    1 The Lord said to Moses,
    2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘After you enter the land I am giving you as a home
    3 and you present to the Lord food offerings from the herd or the flock, as an aroma pleasing to the Lord—whether burnt offerings or sacrifices, for special vows or freewill offerings or festival offerings—
    4 then the person who brings an offering shall present to the Lord a grain offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of the finest flour mixed with a quarter of a hin[b] of olive oil.
    5 With each lamb for the burnt offering or the sacrifice, prepare a quarter of a hin of wine as a drink offering.
    And Jesus said:
    Matthew 26:26 KJV, "This is My body."
    Mark 14:22 KJV, "This is My body."
    Luke 22:19 KJV, "This is My body .... "
    1st Corinthians 11:24 KJV, "This is My body .... "
    John 6: "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world...Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man ... ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh ... hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed...He that eateth my flesh ... dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever."
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    So you're on record now, as calling the Virgin Birth, the Ascension, and Christ's Resurrection, "false teachings that lead a person to their own destruction?"
    You are on record now for not knowing the difference between the doctrines of men and what the Bible teaches.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    You are on record now for not knowing the difference between the doctrines of men and what the Bible teaches.
    False.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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