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Thread: America colonisation ‘cooled Earth's climate’

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    One would think that in a Christian forum that people would be happy that Judeo-Christian laws and culture, and specifically the Christian faith would be brought to a land inhabited by pagans.
    The very long history of Donald Trump's pro homosexual and transgender activism, before and during his Presidency, can be found on page 141, post # 2113 and #2114.
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336963
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336964

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Berean View Post
    When one group has guns, steel, and horses, and another group does not the outcome is predictable. The European colonizers had the will, motivation, and desire to conquer an entire continent. Two actually. And that's exactly what they did. This part of history has always fascinating me. The Puritans than came to America is a fascinating story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    The natives shot themselves in the foot by maintaining their ancient grudges that they all held against each other. If they had instead joined forces, they could have mounted a serious defense, but since they insisted on not cooperating with each other, they basically did the 'divide' part of 'divide and conquer' for us. I would say that given that, plus all what you said, made the outcome predictable.
    gross population reduction and the resultant social upheaval were primary factors - the best guesses are that the death toll from disease alone reduced native american (north central and south) populations by 40-80 % before 1700

    imagine what that would do to our social structure - actually, you don't have to imagine, a similar population reduction from disease had occurred in Europe three centuries earlier, with fairly well-documented effects on social structures - the glue that kept Europe from totally unraveling, of course, was the Catholic church

    if the native americans had any similar structure, it has been lost to history - but the archeological evidence regarding trade suggests that the pre-Colombian indigenous peoples were more cooperative than competitive

    a further amplifying effect was the reliance on oral tradition as a vehicle for transmission of accumulated knowledge - without written records, centuries/millennia of acquired wisdom was concentrated in fragile vessels that disappeared




    and it's worth mentioning that my familiarity with the topic is centered on the native peoples that the french and English colonizers in the northeast encountered - i don't have much familiarity with the PacNW, for example, or the plains indians
    Last edited by ok doser; February 5th, 2019 at 04:51 PM.

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    Now that TOL's liberals have told us how evil the European (white) settlers were, let's be politically incorrect for a moment and read about what TOL's liberals and their liberal public schools don't teach:

    Were the Indians Noble Savages?

    ...Many of the Indians were brutal savages, even cannibals! The New Columbia Encyclopedia reported on some Northwest tribes like the Kwakiutl: “They had a highly classified society with chiefs, nobles, commoners, and slaves….This distinctive culture, which included cannibalistic rituals, was not greatly affected by European influences until after the late 18th century….” Yes, some Indians kept slaves and ate them during hard times!

    ...You are supposed to feel guilty for being white, middle class, and Protestant (or Baptist) especially relating to what we have done to the land since taking it from the “noble savage.” But was the Indian so careful with the environment? The Columbia Encyclopedia tells about the Choctaws: “…They hunted with bow and arrow and blowgun, caught fish by poisoning streams….” Yes, friends and neighbors, the “noble savage” was often a polluter.

    ...Before getting into the Indians’ story, I need to “clear out the underbrush” so we can see the forest. One writer wrote of white men who “took over their [Indian] world,” but where did he get the idea that this world [America] belonged to the Indians? Need I remind you that merely living on the land does not confirm ownership? The Indians had lived here for hundreds of years but were still living in crude homes; eating and warming themselves over an open fire; and letting their old people die alone without help.

    ...If the white man had not beached his boats on the sands of Jamestown, Plymouth Rock, and Cape Cod, the Indians would still be huddled around their soot-lined tepees warming themselves over a fire made by rubbing dry sticks together. They would still be burying their dead children because of childhood diseases...

    ...Yes, the Indians in Central and South America had a much more advanced civilization but I remind you they were still savages. In Mexico the Aztecs still sacrificed thousands of young virgins every year and literally jerked the hearts out of their enemies before they were burned on the altar.

    When Cortes arrived in Mexico, his first tour of the capital turned his stomach. Montezuma (who is thought to be a highly civilized person by the uninformed) told Cortes that he could look at anything he wanted to see. Of course, what else do you tell a man who has 450 men with guns?
    Cortes and some of his men walked through the market place where human meat was sold, then climbed up the 114 steps to the temple for a view of the city below. They saw helpless prisoners tied to stone slabs waiting to be sacrificed to the Aztec gods. As they walked through the square, they saw a rack that held the skulls of more than 100,000 victims, a monument to Montezuma’s savagery.

    Cortes and other white Europeans (who for the most part were only Christianized, not Christians) did not have clean hands in their dealing with the Indians. They proved what every honest, informed person knows: man’s heart (of all races) is evil and needs the transforming power of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    http://www.cstnews.com/bm/other-hot-...es~print.shtml


    Aztec tower of skulls
    The very long history of Donald Trump's pro homosexual and transgender activism, before and during his Presidency, can be found on page 141, post # 2113 and #2114.
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336963
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336964

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    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    Now that TOL's liberals have told us how evil the European (white) settlers were...
    reading comprehension really isn't your strong point, is it?

    Probably a product of public schools.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    gross population reduction and the resultant social upheaval were primary factors - the best guesses are that the death toll from disease alone reduced native american (north central and south) populations by 40-80 % before 1700

    imagine what that would do to our social structure - actually, you don't have to imagine, a similar population reduction from disease had occurred in Europe three centuries earlier, with fairly well-documented effects on social structures - the glue that kept Europe from totally unraveling, of course, was the Catholic church

    if the native americans had any similar structure, it has been lost to history - but the archeological evidence regarding trade suggests that the pre-Colombian indigenous peoples were more cooperative than competitive

    a further amplifying effect was the reliance on oral tradition as a vehicle for transmission of accumulated knowledge - without written records, centuries/millennia of acquired wisdom was concentrated in fragile vessels that disappeared




    and it's worth mentioning that my familiarity with the topic is centered on the native peoples that the french and English colonizers in the northeast encountered - i don't have much familiarity with the PacNW, for example, or the plains indians
    What First Nations tribes were located in the Northeast?
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Berean View Post
    What First Nations tribes were located in the Northeast?
    many, but i grew up and live in the heart of the Iroquois confederacy region - what became the six nations - the Mohawk, Onondaga, Oneida, Cayuga, Seneca and Tuscarora


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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    reading comprehension really isn't your strong point, is it?

    Probably a product of public schools.
    Good ole Aaron, always trying to straddle the fence so he'll appear as a moderate.

    As we've seen, your peeps weren't as innocent as you Liberaltarians make them out to be.

    That being said: There have been many successful conversions to Christianity by American Indians. If it weren't for those slave owning-adulterous Founding Fathers and the theocratic Puritans before them, who knows what human culinary delights the American Indian would be enjoying today.
    The very long history of Donald Trump's pro homosexual and transgender activism, before and during his Presidency, can be found on page 141, post # 2113 and #2114.
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336963
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336964

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    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    Good ole Aaron, always trying to straddle the fence so he'll appear as a moderate.

    As we've seen, your peeps weren't as innocent as you Liberaltarians make them out to be.

    That being said: There have been many successful conversions to Christianity by American Indians. If it weren't for those slave owning-adulterous Founding Fathers and the theocratic Puritans before them, who knows what human culinary delights the American Indian would be enjoying today.
    or maybe you're just mentally ill

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    many, but i grew up and live in the heart of the Iroquois confederacy region - what became the six nations - the Mohawk, Onondaga, Oneida, Cayuga, Seneca and Tuscarora

    Do you know of some good books on the history of the Iroquois confederacy? Wikipedia says it was founded by someone named "The Peacemaker" in the 12th century. There's been great debate as to how much influence did the structure of Iroquois confederacy have on the Framers of the US Constitution? Ben Franklin spoke and wrote about the Iroquois confederacy a fair amount.
    Your problem is not technology. The problem is YOU. You lack the will to change...You treat this planet as you treat each other. - Klaatu

    What are you talking about? There is no such thing as the "Mafia"......it doesn't exist. Just a bunch of lies told to defame honest hardworking Italians like myself. - TomO

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Berean View Post
    Do you know of some good books on the history of the Iroquois confederacy? Wikipedia says it was founded by someone named "The Peacemaker" in the 12th century. There's been great debate as to how much influence did the structure of Iroquois confederacy have on the Framers of the US Constitution? Ben Franklin spoke and wrote about the Iroquois confederacy a fair amount.
    I did a little research on "The Peacemaker"

    The Peacemaker and the Great Law of Peace

    The Peacemaker
    In the 12th Century, five nations in what is now the northeastern U.S. were constantly at war: the Mohawks, Seneca, Oneida, Onondaga and Cayugas. The wars were vicious and, according to tribal history, included cannibalism.
    One day, a canoe made of white stone carried a man, born of a virgin, across Onondaga Lake to announce The Good News of Peace had come and the killing and violence would end.
    He traveled from village to village over the course of years, preaching peace because peace was the desire of the Creator. Oral history says it may have taken him 40 years to reach everyone and get agreement from all five nations.
    This man became known as The Peacemaker.
    https://www.mollylarkin.com/the-hist...taught-school/

    Sounds like the savages had their own Jesus Christ.

    Of course it's yet another liberal lie that our nation's founding documents were based on the Iroquois Confederacy, as they knew nothing of the Holy Bible, which is the basis of the US Constitution and our God-given rights as seen in the Declaration of Independence.

    To better understand the Constitution, read your Bible
    https://www.philly.com/philly/opinio...-20180917.html

    Also remember that the Founding Fathers abhorred democracies, they gave us a Constitutional Republic not the representative democracy that the Six Nations had.
    The very long history of Donald Trump's pro homosexual and transgender activism, before and during his Presidency, can be found on page 141, post # 2113 and #2114.
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336963
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5336964

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Berean View Post
    Do you know of some good books on the history of the Iroquois confederacy? Wikipedia says it was founded by someone named "The Peacemaker" in the 12th century. There's been great debate as to how much influence did the structure of Iroquois confederacy have on the Framers of the US Constitution? Ben Franklin spoke and wrote about the Iroquois confederacy a fair amount.

    no, no good books that i know of - at least not any that are not written for schoolchildren - the problem with doing a serious historical study of the native americans, especially the northeast woodland tribes/nations is the lack of a written record - modern historians are loathe to rely on oral tradition

    i've seen some of the claims about the influence of the confederacy on the writers of the constitution, but i don't find it persuasive - my feeling is that they (the writers of the constitution) were much more heavily influenced by the thinking of the french philosophers of the day

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    no, no good books that i know of - at least not any that are not written for schoolchildren - the problem with doing a serious historical study of the native americans, especially the northeast woodland tribes/nations is the lack of a written record - modern historians are loathe to rely on oral tradition
    I would think that the modern historians would at least document the oral tradition and go from there?

    i've seen some of the claims about the influence of the confederacy on the writers of the constitution, but i don't find it persuasive - my feeling is that they (the writers of the constitution) were much more heavily influenced by the thinking of the french philosophers of the day
    I think we need to be clear here. I don't think people claim that the Iroquois Confederacy was THE major influence on the Framers or that Framers directly copied or imitated the Iroquois system of government. That would be a straw-man argument and silly of course. There is a large gap between influence and directly copying. It's possible that the Iroquois influence was limited to Ben Franklin only? From what I have read Ben Franklin had dealings with the Iroquios in the 1740's and 1750's.

    http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/0107/gaz09.html

    https://history.howstuffworks.com/hi...nstitution.htm


    I believe it's more likely than not the any passing similarities between the Iroquois from of government and the American colonies and the early United States was simply a coincidence. The Iroquois and the England/colonies developed democratic styles of government independent of each other.
    Last edited by The Berean; February 6th, 2019 at 03:20 PM.
    Your problem is not technology. The problem is YOU. You lack the will to change...You treat this planet as you treat each other. - Klaatu

    What are you talking about? There is no such thing as the "Mafia"......it doesn't exist. Just a bunch of lies told to defame honest hardworking Italians like myself. - TomO

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    . -Ktoyou

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Berean View Post
    I would think that the modern historians would at least document the oral tradition and go from there?
    they do, but there's not very much further you can go from that poor of a foundation - that's why most references are limited to annotations in texts whose main topic lies elsewhere - primarily areas in which there is a written record, which necessarily limits it to post-contact periods

    and usually governmental records, which are usually military records



    I think we need to be clear here. I don't think people claim that the Iroquois Confederacy was THE major influence on the Framers or that Framers directly copied or imitated the Iroquois system of government.
    it's a popular belief and a source of pride among the akwesasne (mohawk) that i know and have spoken to , which is, admittedly, a small sampling - there's a res just down the road that straddles the border - no walls there , and it accounts for the fact that there's a ton of border patrol presence up here - that and the fact that right now with the ice on, the whole st lawrence is an open border you could walk across if you wanted to risk it


    That would be a straw-man argument and silly of course. There is a large gap between influence and directly copying. It's possible that the Iroquois influence was limited to Ben Franklin only? From what I have read Ben Franklin had dealings with the Iroquios in the 1740's and 1750's.
    and we know of Franklin's experiences because his are some of the very few private letters (and he was prolific) that have survived

    you may want to give this a read - i found informative and enjoyable: https://www.amazon.com/Loyal-Son-War.../dp/0345544218

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