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Thread: Argument supporting existence of a God

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    Argument supporting existence of a God

    God defined as an intelligent, maximized perfected being.

    A.
    Something has always existed. a.
    Potential for Change has always existed. b.
    There is no evidence or reason to suggest that Change is not and has not been, substantially continuous. c.
    Therefore one can deduce
    There are (and has been) an infinite number of Change events.

    B.
    Evolution exists as a consequence of Change events. d.
    A rare portion of Evolution is progressive (i.e. gives rise to higher, more intelligent life forms, with greater survivor-ship potential)
    There is no reason to suggest that evolution is necessarily restricted to the history of Earth. e
    Therefore one can deduce
    Given an infinite number of Change events a maximized realization of progressive Evolution has occurred.

    A maximized progressively evolved being has therefore existed, and may (especially in view of enhanced survivor-ability) still exist.

    A maximized progressively evolved being is a maximally perfected being.

    A maximized perfected being is God

    Support:

    a. Philosophically, the sum total of all existence could never have at any time been Nothing, as Nothing has no potential to produce anything or change into anything. Since we exist now, Something must have always existed. This statement also follows in physics from the Law of Conservation of Energy.

    b. Philosophically, the sum total of all existence must have always had potential for change or else Existence would have (without potential for change) been forever "stuck" in one state. This is not the case now, hence potential for change has always existed.

    c. By observation our present existence that matter and energy is in a continuous state of change. There is no evidence that this is ever not the case. There is no proposed mechanism where an all encompassing frozen state of all Existence could even be possible.

    d. See Darwin.

    e. Rule of modesty. It would be remarkable that our species (having undergone evolution) are unique amidst the cosmos.

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    Over 6000 post club Aimiel's Avatar
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    I don't believe that anything at all existed (physically) before God spoke, saying: "Let there be light..."

    Were I God, I might have said, "Wow! It sure is dark." ... and I'd probably still be all alone in the dark, without any form and simply: VOID.
    "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

    If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

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    Do not pervert justice or show partiality. Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the innocent. — Deuteronomy 16:19

    To the believer, it seems ridiculous that the most brilliant people in history can deny the existence of God. It seems even more unlikely to think that the world happened by accident and without intent. Life is simply too miraculous and amazing. The Jewish sages teach that studying science is one way to experience God and deepen your understanding that He exists. They go on to say that while this pursuit is worthwhile, it isn’t necessary for an understanding that there is an omnipresent force that created our world.

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    Over 2000 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Jesus of Nazareth is risen from the dead.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintAndrew View Post
    God defined as an intelligent, maximized perfected being.

    A.
    Something has always existed. a.
    Potential for Change has always existed. b.
    There is no evidence or reason to suggest that Change is not and has not been, substantially continuous. c.
    Therefore one can deduce
    There are (and has been) an infinite number of Change events.

    B.
    Evolution exists as a consequence of Change events. d.
    A rare portion of Evolution is progressive (i.e. gives rise to higher, more intelligent life forms, with greater survivor-ship potential)
    There is no reason to suggest that evolution is necessarily restricted to the history of Earth. e
    Therefore one can deduce
    Given an infinite number of Change events a maximized realization of progressive Evolution has occurred.

    A maximized progressively evolved being has therefore existed, and may (especially in view of enhanced survivor-ability) still exist.

    A maximized progressively evolved being is a maximally perfected being.

    A maximized perfected being is God

    Support:

    a. Philosophically, the sum total of all existence could never have at any time been Nothing, as Nothing has no potential to produce anything or change into anything. Since we exist now, Something must have always existed. This statement also follows in physics from the Law of Conservation of Energy.

    b. Philosophically, the sum total of all existence must have always had potential for change or else Existence would have (without potential for change) been forever "stuck" in one state. This is not the case now, hence potential for change has always existed.

    c. By observation our present existence that matter and energy is in a continuous state of change. There is no evidence that this is ever not the case. There is no proposed mechanism where an all encompassing frozen state of all Existence could even be possible.

    d. See Darwin.

    e. Rule of modesty. It would be remarkable that our species (having undergone evolution) are unique amidst the cosmos.
    There is no reason to suggest that a rare portion of Evolution is progressive or that it happens at all, for that matter.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintAndrew View Post
    God defined as an intelligent, maximized perfected being.

    A.
    Something has always existed. a.
    Potential for Change has always existed. b.
    There is no evidence or reason to suggest that Change is not and has not been, substantially continuous. c.
    Therefore one can deduce
    There are (and has been) an infinite number of Change events.

    B.
    Evolution exists as a consequence of Change events. d.
    A rare portion of Evolution is progressive (i.e. gives rise to higher, more intelligent life forms, with greater survivor-ship potential)
    There is no reason to suggest that evolution is necessarily restricted to the history of Earth. e
    Therefore one can deduce
    Given an infinite number of Change events a maximized realization of progressive Evolution has occurred.

    A maximized progressively evolved being has therefore existed, and may (especially in view of enhanced survivor-ability) still exist.

    A maximized progressively evolved being is a maximally perfected being.

    A maximized perfected being is God

    Support:

    a. Philosophically, the sum total of all existence could never have at any time been Nothing, as Nothing has no potential to produce anything or change into anything. Since we exist now, Something must have always existed. This statement also follows in physics from the Law of Conservation of Energy.

    b. Philosophically, the sum total of all existence must have always had potential for change or else Existence would have (without potential for change) been forever "stuck" in one state. This is not the case now, hence potential for change has always existed.

    c. By observation our present existence that matter and energy is in a continuous state of change. There is no evidence that this is ever not the case. There is no proposed mechanism where an all encompassing frozen state of all Existence could even be possible.

    d. See Darwin.

    e. Rule of modesty. It would be remarkable that our species (having undergone evolution) are unique amidst the cosmos.
    The acceptence of evolution as a possitive force for change is truly where this line of reasoning breaks down. There hasn't even been enough time for a single protein to have assembled yet, never mind the rest of evolution...



    Approximate odds of forming one single modestly sized protein: 1 in 10^164.

    Approximate number of seconds the universe has existed: 10^16

    Aproximate number of elementary particles in the universe: 10^80

    Aproximate number is discrete events that have occured since the beginning of the universe: 10^139


    So, just look at the two bolded items above, the chance of an accidental protein forming and the number of seconds that have transpired since the beginning of the universe. The numbers here are much larger than your mind can grasp. Even 10^16 is far larger than anyone can comprehend and 10^164 is very very very much larger than 10^16. In fact it is 10^148 times larger!
    So, if you tried one amino acid sequence every second from the beginning of time til now, each one being different than any of the others, and then you kept on doing it for 10^148 times longer than the universe has existed, you'll still have likely only come up with one single middle sized protein!

    You'll not have come up with a cell, or even a ribosome (the machine which builds proteins which itself is made of proteins), and forget about DNA or the mind blowingly complex mechanisms involved in duplicating and organizing the DNA molecule itself as well as reading and carrying out the complex instructions contained therein.

    No, God could not have evolved any more than we could have, not in a million billion trillion years and not in an eternity either. Information cannot, in any amount of time, come from non-information; life cannot come from non-living systems; intelligence cannot come from mindlessness.

    Clete

    P.S. Here's a link to a terrific video that has some truly excellent visualizations of just how big such numbers are. Note that the number dicussed in the video isn't anywhere near 10^164...

    https://youtu.be/0DSclqnnC2s
    Last edited by Clete; February 6th, 2019 at 09:27 AM.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintAndrew View Post
    God defined as an intelligent, maximized perfected being.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintAndrew View Post
    Evolution exists as a consequence of Change events.
    Evolution is the idea that all life is descended from a universal common ancestor by means of random mutations and natural selection.

    The assertion that it is real is anti-science.

    Thus your syllogism fails.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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    You don't believe that humans have arisen from evolution??? Humans are a prime example of "progressive evolution". The idea is that intelligence can be a mechanism for enhanced survival.

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    I see your argument which suggests it unlikely that progressive evolution could account for a God, because of the extreme rarity of key events from elementary random matter -> abiogenesis, to DNA, to a maximized evolution species or individual (God) etc.

    However I disagree with your statement which I have bolded and underlined "No, God could not have evolved any more than we could have, not in a million billion trillion years and not in an eternity either
    ."

    Even the most extreme odds against an event, even 10 to the (fill in the blank, largest number you can write)power, is infinitely small against infinite time.

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    OK, I amend, God defined "at least in part" as an intelligent, maximized perfected being.

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    OK, but here's the thing
    I submit is is illogical and simply incorrect to state God pre-existed physical reality.
    "Energy" (which a physical construct, a part of physics) is defined as capacity or potential to do work.
    God's "word" - can do work, hence by definition has energy!.
    God's word is co-existent with God, God is infinite, God's word is infinite, therefore Energy (which is a physical notion) is infinite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintAndrew View Post
    OK, but here's the thing
    I submit is is illogical and simply incorrect to state God pre-existed physical reality.
    "Energy" (which a physical construct, a part of physics) is defined as capacity or potential to do work.
    God's "word" - can do work, hence by definition has energy!.
    God's word is co-existent with God, God is infinite, God's word is infinite, therefore Energy (which is a physical notion) is infinite.
    All of the energy and matter in the universe come from the quantum field, and the quantum field itself is the result of God speaking the universe into existence.
    God is not bound by the quantum field, therefor God's "word" is not energy as we can define it and is not bound by E=mc2
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintAndrew View Post
    You don't believe that humans have arisen from evolution???
    It is irrelevant what I believe. To be scientific, you have to present ideas as testable and falsifiable. Saying evolution is a fact is anti-science.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    All of the energy and matter in the universe come from the quantum field, and the quantum field itself is the result of God speaking the universe into existence.
    God is not bound by the quantum field, therefor God's "word" is not energy as we can define it and is not bound by E=mc2
    Actually, its E = γmc2

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