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Thread: Principles of Spiritual Growth

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    I don't know that describing the healings or deliverances I've seen would do you any good, since you don't believe that God can do such things today.
    I never said that the LORD couldn't do the super natural things which are mentioned at Mark 16:17-18. Instead, I said that He is not doing them during this dispensation. But he doing miracles greater to those mentioned at Mark 16 today when people are born of God and become children of God upon hearing and believing the gospel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    I couldn't begin to describe the prophecies I've received or given without you saying that they're not from God; so again: I couldn't describe the words of knowledge or words of wisdom I've spoken or the other visitations or miraculous things I've seen in my 50 years of being Christian. All told, my story would take probably several days just to speak about what I've seen...
    Why can't you begin to describe the prophecies which you have received or the miraculous things you have seen?

    You don't have to tell us about all of them but surely you can tell us about some of them.

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    Over 5000 post club Aimiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I never said that the LORD couldn't do the super natural things which are mentioned at Mark 16:17-18. Instead, I said that He is not doing them during this dispensation. But he doing miracles greater to those mentioned at Mark 16 today when people are born of God and become children of God upon hearing and believing the gospel.
    I don't believe that is what Jesus meant when He said that we'd do greater works than He did. He, in point of fact, brought the thief next to Him on the cross to Paradise the day He was crucified and for us to do a greater miracle than that would be a miracle worth saying was greater than what He's done.
    Why can't you begin to describe the prophecies which you have received or the miraculous things you have seen?
    I told you why: it's because of your un-belief. You said God is NOT doing such things, so I have to acquiesce to your will.
    "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." -- Amos 3:7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    I told you why: it's because of your un-belief. You said God is NOT doing such things, so I have to acquiesce to your will.
    Since you claim to have seen many miracles then why wouln't you want to share them with others so that those people might be convinced and change their minds?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Since you claim to have seen many miracles then why wouln't you want to share them with others so that those people might be convinced and change their minds?
    That would be worthless. Thinking that seeing is believing is exactly the opposite of how God planned faith. He says that believing is seeing. He doesn't do miracles so that people believe that He can do miracles. He does miracles because people believe that He can, even though they've never seen one. It takes now faith, even for those of us who've seen the miraculous (even more so, because we tend to rely upon what we've seen before) and it becomes a new experience every time since God never shows up the same way twice. Those who believe because they see always fall away.
    "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." -- Amos 3:7

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    He does miracles because people believe that He can, even though they've never seen one. It takes now faith, even for those of us who've seen the miraculous (even more so, because we tend to rely upon what we've seen before) and it becomes a new experience every time since God never shows up the same way twice. Those who believe because they see always fall away.
    I believe that the LORD can certainly do miracles but I have never seen any like the ones described at Mark 16:17-18 although I have seen many people try to fake those miracles. I go by what the Scriptures say. For instance, the Apostles were commanded by the Lord Jesus to heal and Paul was given special powers and even his handkerchiefs and aprons which he had touched cured diseases:

    "And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them" (Acts 19:11-12).

    Then later Paul could not heal Epaphroditus when he lay sick nigh unto death by his side at Rome (Phil.2:27). During the present dispensation Paul left Trophimus lying sick at Miletum (2 Timothy 4:20).

    Why would Paul not heal his friends and fellow Christians if he had the power to do so?

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    "And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them" (Acts 19:11-12).

    Then later Paul could not heal Epaphroditus when he lay sick nigh unto death by his side at Rome (Phil.2:27). During the present dispensation Paul left Trophimus lying sick at Miletum (2 Timothy 4:20)."

    This is carrying the dispensationalist division of time periods during which different dispensationa are in place too far.

    Lets look at New Testament translations earlier than the King James Version for the translation of Oikonomia.

    See: https://craigcfisher.wordpress.com/2014/11/20/353/

    "Ephesians 3: 2: "If netheles ye han herd the dispensacioun of Godd is grace, that is youun to me in you."

    This is from Wycliffe’s Bible, of about 1382, which is a Catholic English translation of the Latin Vulgate New Testament.

    "The English word dispensation or Old English dispensacioun is from the Latin dispensatio."

    Here is William Tyndale's translations of oikonomia in his New Testament of about 1526:

    Ephesians 1: 9-10: "And hath opened unto us the mystery of his will according to his pleasure, and purposed 10 the same in himself to have it declared when the time were full come: that all things, both the things which are in heaven, and also the things which are in earth, should be gathered together, even in Christ."

    I am not sure which English word for Tyndale's translation of Ephesians 1: 10. It might be time for oikonomia.

    Ephesians 3: 2-5: " If ye have heard of the ministration of the grace of God which is given me to you ward - 3 For by revelation showed he this mystery unto me, as I wrote above in few words, 4 whereby, when ye read ye may know mine understanding in the mystery of Christ, 5 which mystery in times past was not opened unto the sons of men as it is now declared unto his holy apostles and prophets by the spirit:"

    Ministration is the Tyndale translation of oikonomia.

    Colossians 1: 24-26: "Now joy I in my sufferings which I suffer, for you; and fulfill that which is behind of the passions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the congregation - 25 whereof am I made a minister according to the ordinance of God, which ordinance was given me unto you ward, to fulfill the word of God: 26 that mystery, hid since the world began, and since the beginning of generations: But now is opened to his saints,"

    Ordinance is the Tyndale translation of oikonomia here.

    These our New Testament scriptures which use oikonomia by Tyndale are from https://studybible.info/MSTC/Colossians

    Tyndale broke with the Catholic Wycliffe translation of oikonomia as dispensation.

    Remember that Tyndale does not use a consistent translation of oikonomia, but uses office, ministration and ordinance.

    From Wycliffe’s Bible, of about 1382, which is a Catholic English translation of the Latin Vulgate New Testament, "The English word dispensation or Old English dispensacioun is from the Latin dispensatio."

    Just as the Wycliffe Catholic English Bible of 1382 translated ekklesia as chirche (in old English spelling), and
    Tyndale broke from the Catholic translation of ekklesia and used congregation consistently, so Tyndale did not follow the Catholic translation of oikonomia as "dispensation." This is interesting.

    I do not know whether or not there are valid reasons why the Catholic Church might have supported the translation of oikonomia as dispensation. But I do understand the reasons why the Catholics wanted to use church as the translation of ekklesia. The use of Church would support the rule of a clergy class of priests over the people (I Peter 5: 2-3) more that would Tyndale's congregation for ekklesia. Yet it is interesting that dispensationalism insists on following the Geneva Bible and the King James translation of oikonomia and would reject the Tyndale translations of oikonomia.

    Note that William Tyndale has credentials as a single Textus Receptus translator.

    "It will be seen that in these nine chapters more than 83% of the words in the Geneva Version were taken direct from Tyndale, and more than 81% of the words in the King James Version. I believe this sample is statistically valid for the whole New Testament and those books of the Old Testament that Tyndale translated." See: http://www.ministers-best-friend.com...-Tyndales.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    This is carrying the dispensationalist division of time periods during which different dispensationa are in place too far.
    What do you think is the proper way that oikonomia should be translated?

    What do you think Paul was referring to when he wrote of the "oikonomia of the grace of God" (Eph.3:2)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Why would Paul not heal his friends and fellow Christians if he had the power to do so?
    Paul never had any power. God is The Healer. He is still in the healing business. You don't have to believe Him. His healing is available to you, but He won't force you to avail yourself of it.
    "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." -- Amos 3:7

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    https://biblehub.com/greek/3622.htm

    "3622, οἰκονομίία oikonomia: stewardship, administration, management of household affairs, stewardship, administration."

    "Colossians 1:25
    GRK: κατὰ τὴν οἰκονομίαν τοῦ θεοῦ
    NAS: according to the stewardship from God
    KJV: according to the dispensation of God
    INT: according to the administration of God"

    Tyndale translation of Colossians 1: 25: "whereof am I made a minister according to the ordinance of God, which ordinance was given me unto you ward, to fulfill the word of God."

    Ordinance is the Tyndale translation of oikonomia for Colossians 1: 25

    The question again that interests me is whether the use of the word "dispensacioun" in the Wycliffe Bible, of about 1382, which is a Catholic English translation of the Latin Vulgate New Testament, reflects a Catholic interest in the use of "dispensacioun." Did the Catholics have some reason for using "dispensacioun," and did some authority after the death of Calvin, such as Theodore Beza, prefer the use of dispensation rather than Tyndale's translations of oikonomia? The Geneva Bible, which came before the King James Version, uses dispensation consistently for oikonomia. An earlier translation by Beza had an influence upon the Geneva Bible translation group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    Paul never had any power. God is The Healer. He is still in the healing business. You don't have to believe Him. His healing is available to you, but He won't force you to avail yourself of it.
    Do you deny that the Lord Jesus commanded his Apostles to heal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    https://biblehub.com/greek/3622.htm

    "3622, οἰκονομίία oikonomia: stewardship, administration, management of household affairs, stewardship, administration."

    "Colossians 1:25
    GRK: κατὰ τὴν οἰκονομίαν τοῦ θεοῦ
    NAS: according to the stewardship from God
    KJV: according to the dispensation of God
    INT: according to the administration of God"

    Tyndale translation of Colossians 1: 25: "whereof am I made a minister according to the ordinance of God, which ordinance was given me unto you ward, to fulfill the word of God."

    Ordinance is the Tyndale translation of oikonomia for Colossians 1: 25

    The question again that interests me is whether the use of the word "dispensacioun" in the Wycliffe Bible, of about 1382, which is a Catholic English translation of the Latin Vulgate New Testament, reflects a Catholic interest in the use of "dispensacioun." Did the Catholics have some reason for using "dispensacioun," and did some authority after the death of Calvin, such as Theodore Beza, prefer the use of dispensation rather than Tyndale's translations of oikonomia? The Geneva Bible, which came before the King James Version, uses dispensation consistently for oikonomia. An earlier translation by Beza had an influence upon the Geneva Bible translation group.
    What do you think Paul was referring to when he wrote of the "stewardship of the grace of God" (Eph.3:2)?

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    If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: 3.How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words).........Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power." Ephesians 3: 2-3,7

    In Ephesians 3: 2 Paul is saying that God made him (Paul) a minister (Ephesians 3: 3) of the Gospel of grace, which implies also the Gospel of justification by faith.

    The definition of the English word dispensation from https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/de...n/dispensation is:

    "Origin: Late Middle English: from Latin dispensatio(n-), from the verb dispensare (see dispense)......The action of distributing or supplying something.
    ‘regulations controlling dispensation of medications..........Permission to be exempted from the laws or observances of the Church.
    ‘he received papal dispensation to hold a number of benefices’
    count noun ‘the Pope granted Henry a dispensation to marry Elizabeth of York’"........... (in Christian theology) a divinely ordained system prevailing at a particular period of history. ‘the Mosaic dispensation’"

    However, note that the Oxford Dictionary says in Christian theology a dispensation is a system prevailing at a particular period of history. It does not say that New Testament scripture defines a dispensation in this way.

    When dispensationalism says that God made only Paul the minister of the Gospel of Grace and of justification by faith, then dispensationalism gets into problems with the New Testament. There was a point of disagreement between the Jerusalem ekklesia and Paul and his Crew in Acts 15 over circumcision of Gentiles. That disagreement was settled by allowing the Gentile Christians not to have to be circumcised, which agrees with the Gospel of justification by faith and not be race and obeying the law.

    In II Peter 3: 15-17 Peter says "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
    16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
    17.Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."

    In his Gospel John uses pisteuo (believe) many times rather than pistis (faith) but the two Greek words have much the same meaning.

    https://biblehub.com/greek/4100.htm

    Strong's Number 4100, πιστεύω, to believe, have faith in, trust in;"

    https://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm

    "Strong's Number 4102, πίστις, pistis: faith, faithfulness
    belief, trust, confidence;"

    John 3: 16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    Maybe to dispensationalists, in their zeal for dividing up meanings, believers, races, etc, and in their literalist "Hermeneutic," pisteuo has a different meaning than does pistis.

    But that third chapter of John's Gospel has a very important New Testament doctrine, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" - John 3: 3. Remember that Christ is here talking to a Pharisee, Nicodemus. So, this New Testament doctrine that everyone, regardless of their genetics, must be born again by the Spirit. to enter the kingdom of God means that a Jewish person is not justified by his genetics under the New Covenant. This doctrine itself disagrees with the doctrines established by the Founders of dispensationalism, that the multitude of Old Covenant Israel remain a Chosen People.

    But maybe for a dispensationalist the "kingdom of God" is in a different dispensation
    Last edited by northwye; February 16th, 2019 at 09:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: 3.How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words).........Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power." Ephesians 3: 2-3,7

    In Ephesians 3: 2 Paul is saying that God made him (Paul) a minister (Ephesians 3: 3) of the Gospel of grace, which implies also the Gospel of justification by faith.
    Yes, I agree with that. So when do you say that stewardship began?

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    When dispensationalism says that God made only Paul the minister of the Gospel of Grace and of justification by faith, then dispensationalism gets into problems with the New Testament. There was a point of disagreement between the Jerusalem ekklesia and Paul and his Crew in Acts 15 over circumcision of Gentiles. That disagreement was settled by allowing the Gentile Christians not to have to be circumcised, which agrees with the Gospel of justification by faith and not be race and obeying the law.

    In II Peter 3: 15-17 Peter says "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
    16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
    17.Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."

    In his Gospel John uses pisteuo (believe) many times rather than pistis (faith) but the two Greek words have much the same meaning.

    https://biblehub.com/greek/4100.htm

    Strong's Number 4100, πιστεύω, to believe, have faith in, trust in;"

    https://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm

    "Strong's Number 4102, πίστις, pistis: faith, faithfulness
    belief, trust, confidence;"

    John 3: 16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    Maybe to dispensationalists, in their zeal for dividing up meanings, believers, races, etc, and in their literalist "Hermeneutic," pisteuo has a different meaning than does pistis.

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    When dispensationalism says that God made only Paul the minister of the Gospel of Grace and of justification by faith, then dispensationalism gets into problems with the New Testament. There was a point of disagreement between the Jerusalem ekklesia and Paul and his Crew in Acts 15 over circumcision of Gentiles. That disagreement was settled by allowing the Gentile Christians not to have to be circumcised, which agrees with the Gospel of justification by faith and not be race and obeying the law.

    In II Peter 3: 15-17 Peter says "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
    16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
    17.Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."

    In his Gospel John uses pisteuo (believe) many times rather than pistis (faith) but the two Greek words have much the same meaning.

    https://biblehub.com/greek/4100.htm

    Strong's Number 4100, πιστεύω, to believe, have faith in, trust in;"

    https://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm

    "Strong's Number 4102, πίστις, pistis: faith, faithfulness
    belief, trust, confidence;"

    John 3: 16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    Maybe to dispensationalists, in their zeal for dividing up meanings, believers, races, etc, and in their literalist "Hermeneutic," pisteuo has a different meaning than does pistis.

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