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Thread: Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

  1. #1816
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    Greetings Right Divider,
    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Please quote the scripture that says that those apostles will sit IN HIS FATHERS throne. You have throne confusion.
    I was simply using Aimiel’s logic “He is IN His Father's Throne. Please note: God doesn't share His Glory with ANYONE. Jesus, ergo: MUST be God!!!”. God the Father is God and does not share his glory with anyone, and to sit in God the Father’s throne is to share God’s glory. If, as Trinitarians claim, Jesus is God, then to sit in Jesus’ throne is to share Jesus’ glory, then unless you believe that God the Son is more generous than God the Father, then you have a problem.
    Matthew 19:28 (KJV): And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    OK, I accept that this is your view, but it includes some things that are not in the Scripture, which only says "XYZ was made flesh" (Jn1:14KJV), not the "fulfillment of God's XYZ" was made flesh, nor the "fulfillment of God's words /sayings" was made flesh. You add those. All the Scripture says is, "XYZ was made flesh."
    What benefit do you think is provided by substituting "XYZ" for "logos"? We have a WONDERFUL proof of the meaning of "logos" here;
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.
    John 1:14 And the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,...
    John 2:22 ...and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
    John 4:37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.
    John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
    John 4:41 And many more believed because of his own word;
    John 4:50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.
    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life ...
    John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
    John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
    John 7:36 What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
    John 7:40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
    John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
    John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
    John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
    John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
    John 8:52 .. thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
    John 8:55 ... I know him, and keep his saying.
    John 10:19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
    John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake,..
    John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, .. hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
    John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: ...
    John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
    John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
    John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, ... if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
    John 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
    John 17:6 ... thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
    John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
    John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
    John 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
    John 19:8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;
    John 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat
    John 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?


    So, it's VERY accurate to substitute "sayings" or "words".

    Therefore, we have "And the sayings were made flesh".

    I can agree with that.

  3. #1818
    Body part Right Divider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings Right Divider, I was simply using Aimiel’s logic “He is IN His Father's Throne. Please note: God doesn't share His Glory with ANYONE. Jesus, ergo: MUST be God!!!”. God the Father is God and does not share his glory with anyone, and to sit in God the Father’s throne is to share God’s glory. If, as Trinitarians claim, Jesus is God, then to sit in Jesus’ throne is to share Jesus’ glory, then unless you believe that God the Son is more generous than God the Father, then you have a problem.
    Matthew 19:28 (KJV): And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    The throne of his glory refers to the Lord Jesus Christ's throne in Jerusalem when He returns to establish His kingdom.

    Revelation 22:1 & 3 show that throne of God is also the throne of the Lamb (the Lord Jesus Christ).

    Just another of the many, many times that the Bible refers to Christ as God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

  4. #1819
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    If Jesus is not God, then He is not worthy of being worshipped.

    If He is God, He is worthy of worship.

    The Bible says He is worthy of being worshipped.

    Therefore, He is God.
    Being worshiped does not make someone God.
    Being worthy of worship does not make someone God.

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    You seem to have missed the context of Revelation 5:12.

    Allow me to present it to you:

    And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,saying with a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!” And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb[/U], forever and ever!”Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever. - Revelation 5:1-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4&version=NKJV
    You seem to have missed something important, which I highlighted.
    If the Lamb is God, then the Lamb would have "power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing" from all eternity as God and the Lamb would not RECEIVE "power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing" because He was worthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    The point is that God alone is worthy of worship.
    The Bible shows otherwise.
    Jacob/Israel was to be worshiped by all tribes.

    Genesis 27:29 DRA
    29 And let peoples serve thee, and tribes worship thee: be thou lord of thy brethren, and let thy mother's children bow down before thee. Cursed be he that curseth thee: and let him that blesseth thee be filled with blessings.


    Joseph was worshiped by his brothers.

    Genesis 50:18 DRA
    18 And his brethren came to him: and worshipping prostrate on the ground they said: We are thy servants.


    Jethro was worshiped by Moses.

    Exodus 18:7 DRA
    7 And he went out to meet his kinsman, and worshipped and kissed him: and they saluted one another with words of peace. And when he was come into the tent,


    Boaz was worshiped by Ruth.

    Ruth 2:10 DRA
    10 She fell on her face and worshipping upon the ground, said to him: Whence cometh this to me, that I should find grace before thy eyes, and that thou shouldst vouchsafe to take notice of me a woman of another country?



    There are many more examples.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  5. #1820
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Catholics and Orthodox don't believe Mary has any power or authority, and that she has the ear of the Lord, is based in part upon scriptural example.
    And the scriptural example from this passage shows that Mary has no special access to Jesus.

    Matthew 12:46-50
    46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
    47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
    48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
    49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
    50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    No Catholics or Orthodox believe that Mary is in any way God. Therefore it is simply incorrect to accuse Catholics or Orthodox of worshiping Mary when praying to her. We do not worship Mary.

    Even though you are arguing that it would be licit to worship her as royalty, if she is royalty /a queen, Catholics and Orthodox only worship God, and Mary is in no way God.
    A few excerpts from a Catholic website that I believe constitute damnable heresies:

    Ad Caeli Reginam

    10. So it is that St. Ephrem. . . prays to her: ". . . Majestic and Heavenly Maid, Lady, Queen, protect and keep me under your wing lest Satan the sower of destruction glory over me, lest my wicked foe be victorious against me."

    16. The Blessed Virgin, sitting at the right hand of God to pray for us is hailed by another writer of that same era in these words, "the Queen of mortal man, the most holy Mother of God."

    18. And in another place he [St. Andrew of Crete] speaks of "the Queen of the entire human race faithful to the exact meaning of her name, who is exalted above all things save only God himself."

    19. Likewise St. Germanus speaks to the humble Virgin in these words: "Be enthroned, Lady, for it is fitting that you should sit in an exalted place since you are a Queen and glorious above all kings." He likewise calls her the "Queen of all of those who dwell on earth."

    24. We wish also to recall that Our predecessor of immortal memory, Sixtus IV, touched favorably upon the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin, beginning the Apostolic Letter *** praeexcelsa with words in which Mary is called "Queen," "Who is always vigilant to intercede with the king whom she bore." Benedict XIV declared the same thing in his Apostolic Letter Gloriosae Dominae, in which Mary is called "Queen of heaven and earth," and it is stated that the sovereign King has in some way communicated to her his ruling power.

    35. But the Blessed Virgin Mary should be called Queen, not only because of her Divine Motherhood, but also because God has willed her to have an exceptional role in the work of our eternal salvation.

    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  6. #1821
    ✈The Flying Ban Hammer✈ Sherman's Avatar
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    ​This thread has become too uncivil. Shutting it down.

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