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Thread: What IS an "immaterial spirit"?

  1. #61
    Over 500 post club 7djengo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Excellent question, the skull is a nice way to keep your hair out of your brain, and a great helmet ...... but it isn't your identity.
    The brain is.
    If you suffer from trauma, or the wrong chemicals, or malnourishment, or a parasite, or a virus , etc, your spirit/mind can be forever altered.
    I asked you "Which is YOU, the skull, or the brain?" And your answer was, "The brain is." Now, notice what you must needs imply if you wish to claim that the skull is part of you (as have claimed that the Holy Ghost is "part of God"): you will be implying that the skull is part of the brain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    What do you think with?

    Tell me, if your head was transplanted on to some unfortunate donor's body ..... where would "YOU" be?
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...fully-carried/
    Well, man is composed of body, soul, and spirit.

    The body is all the mechanical components ...joints, marrow, brain matter, etc.

    The inner man (unseen) is comprised of the soul (mind, emotions, etc), and dwells in the body of flesh.

    The innermost man is comprised of the spirit (intuition and conscience) ..therefore also a part of the unseen man which dwells in the body. The spirit of man is how we communicate with the Spirit of God.

    As for your hypothetical question, I have no clue. I would think the soul would use whatever mechanics of the body which were available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    Are you saying that a brain is a spirit?
    Yes!
    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7
    Are you saying that a brain is a mind?
    Yes!

    And I am saying a mind is a spirit.

    This isn't the ONLY definition for spirit, but it is the most COMMON usage.

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    I asked you, "Are you saying that a brain is a spirit?", and you replied:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Yes!
    So, would you say that the Holy Spirit is a brain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    What do you think with?
    I think with logic. Why do you refuse to think with logic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    So, would you say that the Holy Spirit is a brain?
    Scripture doesn't discuss it those terms.
    Scripture DOES state God made man in His image/tselem, which is a visual likeness.
    Moses saw Jehovah/YHVH God's back, and hand, but could not see His face, or Moses would have died.
    Again, Scripture does NOT state God has a brain. But, I am convinced there is a magnificent brain behind His face.
    Scripture DOES instruct us to look at God's Creation to learn about God.
    Plants don't have brains .... Animals do.
    We KNOW our mind is a function of the brain, because we can manipulate aspects of the mind by material means, affecting the brain.
    And, Scripture states that God has a mind;
    1 Sam 2:34 And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.
    Job 23:13-16
    But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
    14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.
    15 Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him.
    16 For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:
    Jer 15:1 Then said Jehovah unto me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my mind would not be toward this people: cast them out of my sight, and let them go forth.

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    It would help if what is actually being meant by 'immaterial spirit'.

    A material spirit by definition is ethereal. Like alcohol 'spirits' or, in another context, a wind. It's where the idea of spirits being something similar to Casper comes from.

    Immaterial spirits have become more of a universal idea because material spirits often tend to induce pagan or idolatrous thinking. The fumes from a magic lamp for example was at one point considered to be evoking or trapping a spirit.
    Abrahamic religion doesn't really go that route though they nonetheless believed spirits could be sealed away by some forms of physical consecration.

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    I asked you, "Are you saying that a brain is a mind?" To which, you replied:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Yes!
    And, now, you have just claimed:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    We KNOW our mind is a function of the brain, because we can manipulate aspects of the mind by material means, affecting the brain.
    So, you affirm:

    • A brain is a mind.
    • A mind is a function of the brain.


    Thus, what you've just told us is that A brain is a function of the brain.

    Why do you expect rational people to take you seriously?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    I asked you, "Are you saying that a brain is a mind?" To which, you replied:



    And, now, you have just claimed:



    So, you affirm:

    • A brain is a mind.
    • A mind is a function of the brain.


    Thus, what you've just told us is that A brain is a function of the brain.

    Why do you expect rational people to take you seriously?
    Rational people don't have any problem comprehending that words can have slightly different meanings.
    You seem to struggle with this.
    But, I am MUCH more suspicious, you really think you are extremely bright, and think you can come up with some kind of trap, to make your point.

    Sorry.

    Not so much.

    A brain that is working appropriately is a mind, because a mind is a function of the brain.

    Without a brain, you have no mind. If you have no mind, your brain isn't working appropriately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Rational people don't have any problem comprehending that words can have slightly different meanings.
    Which words?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    But, I am MUCH more suspicious, you really think you are extremely bright, and think you can come up with some kind of trap, to make your point.
    I don't think I'm extremely bright, but I know that you're extremely self-righteous, and disingenuous--a consummate weasel. Everything you write on here is for the purpose of obfuscation. You're a wolf.

    I don't "come up with traps". You lay traps for yourself, as a matter of course, because, being at war with truth and logic, you can't help but do so. I merely have, sometimes, a decent nose for sniffing out devious subtleties and rank incoherence amongst affirmations, and I apply it, as much as I can, toward shedding light upon the ravings of false teachers such as yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Sorry.

    Not so much.

    A brain that is working appropriately is a mind, because a mind is a function of the brain.

    Without a brain, you have no mind. If you have no mind, your brain isn't working appropriately.
    Why attempt damage control? You've already demolished your own fabrication. Your self-inflicted meltdown is sad to observe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    Which words?



    I don't think I'm extremely bright, but I know that you're extremely self-righteous, and disingenuous--a consummate weasel. Everything you write on here is for the purpose of obfuscation. You're a wolf.

    I don't "come up with traps". You lay traps for yourself, as a matter of course, because, being at war with truth and logic, you can't help but do so. I merely have, sometimes, a decent nose for sniffing out devious subtleties and rank incoherence amongst affirmations, and I apply it, as much as I can, toward shedding light upon the ravings of false teachers such as yourself.




    Why attempt damage control? You've already demolished your own fabrication. Your self-inflicted meltdown is sad to observe.

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    Are you saying that a brain is a spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Yes!
    Are you saying that a brain is a mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post

    Yes!

    And I am saying a mind is a spirit.

    So, here's what YOUR version of Mark 5:1-16 KJV would look like:

    1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.

    2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean BRAIN,

    3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:

    4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.

    5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.

    6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

    7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

    8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean BRAIN.

    9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

    10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.

    11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.

    12 And all the BRAINS besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

    13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean BRAINS went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand and were choked in the sea.

    14 And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.

    15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the BRAIN, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right BRAIN: and they were afraid.

    16 And they that saw it told them how it befell to him that was possessed with the BRAIN, and also concerning the swine.

    17 And Dartman began to pray 7djengo7 to depart out of this thread.

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    .... interesting. We are 73 posts into this thread, and not one person has been able to explain "immaterial spirits", or "immaterial beings".

    It's not too surprising .... since the only detailed source material is fiction, of one kind or another.

    Also, predictably, no one has produced a single Scripture that states we should believe in such a thing. Many have attempted to prove the point, by pointing out the obvious.... God is called "spirit", angels and demons are called "spirit", so are false prophets, (and any messenger).
    But no one can find a text that explains one of those beings as "immaterial". It remains a theory from fiction.

    The Biblical usage of both Hebrew ruach and Greek pneuma allow for multiple definitions, breath, wind, vital principle, rational mind. And, to be fair, the commentaries and study helps, like concordances, etc., include in THEIR definitions the mainstream concept of some kind of immaterial being/spirit ..... but what is missing is any Scripture that states, explains or teaches us about any "immaterial being" (or any other similar term). They add these definitions merely because virtually EVERYONE accepts them.

    The MAIN passage produced is Luke 24, where the apostles slipped into pagan superstition, and mistakenly thought Jesus was a "ghost".. but Jesus turned the superstition against their error, and pointed out that he is flesh and bone.

    So, the response has been .... pretty much what I thought.

  19. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    I know that you're extremely self-righteous, and disingenuous--a consummate weasel. Everything you write on here is for the purpose of obfuscation. You're a wolf.
    You are projecting


    Psychological projection is a defence mechanism in which the human ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.

    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    I think an "immaterial spirit" is unimportant and not relevant.
    Anything else would be redundant.

    immaterial
    1. unimportant under the circumstances; irrelevant.
    2. spiritual, rather than physical.

    If I'm not mistaken, you're trying to say that the phrase, "immaterial spirit", is redundant. No? If so, you are quite correct. In any case, the phrase, "immaterial spirit", is indeed redundant. Since to be a spirit is to be immaterial, the phrase "immaterial spirit" cannot but be redundant. That being the case, Dartman's phrase "material spirit" is, necessarily, an oxymoron, like the phrase "square circle".

    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    I am a material spirit, and so are you. EVERY human being is a material spirit....

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