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Thread: What IS an "immaterial spirit"?

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    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Exactly, and we are instructed to "try" them, and see if they are legit. The text is talking about "false prophets" correct?
    1 John 4:5-6 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
    a) A prophet of the LORD speaks for the LORD.
    b) A false prophet says they speak for the LORD but instead speaks for a different spirit.

    Therefore) If there are false prophets in the world that is because they are speaking from false spirits, meaning spirits that are not God but impostors. Human prophets aren't spirits. See Luke 24:37, "But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit" and Luke 24:39, "for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

    If he meant human prophets out in the world, those would have flesh and bones, not an apparition like what the disciples thought they saw walking on the water. Jesus on earth didn't call himself a spirit even after he had risen from the dead and ascended to his Father.

    The spirits that is talking about are the type that are normally invisible, but which have the ability to appear to us whether through physical manifestation, possession, or through our mental perception. You know, "spirits" ... not humans.

    Really? Why do you think that?
    You mean, why would be be robots if it wasn't for free will, and why free will must be a spiritual component and not something physical? That's a basic philosophy question, but it also lends itself into the engineering and computer science fields. We aren't able to build "free will" machines. All machines take input and produce outputs which are guaranteed outputs based on what goes in.

    What is a "world of spirit"?
    That's a term I made up for what we cannot see because it's spirit and we see with eyes. Spirit exists, but it's not something that we can directly detect or measure because it is immaterial.

    This doesn't address HOW the immaterial can manipulate the material. Could you expand on this idea?
    If the scope is still on whether spirits are "material" or "immaterial" I don't think that I should be required to explain how spirits manipulate forces and matter. It's enough to recognize that the meaning of "spirit" by definition means immaterial.

    If we are simply accepting that and expanding on a friendly basis,

    1) God is a spirit, and he created the heavens and the earth with his word, by an act of will. I cannot explain how that happens, but I accept that it did.

    2) Devils are spirits, yet they are known to have the ability to possess people and animals. See Matthew 8:29-32 for an example of both types of possession. In this way the physical world is affected through the manipulation of the possessed host. This might leave no memory of the events with the host, or they might be allowed to witness from a "back seat." I suspect that whatever interface our brains have that allow it to interact with our spirits might also be compatible with the demonic spirits.

    3) Devils sometimes affect our world through direct forces, like the poltergeist. Physical objects can be moved or slammed about, noises might be heard, and so on and so forth. I don't know what rules are in place that allow or prohibit such activity. Another variation of this might be "magic" when supernatural effects seem to be performed by a human. I don't think that this is actually the power of the human, but rather the power of the devil that is in affinity with the human in question.

    4) There is also the possibility that the physical might not be actually manipulated, but rather perceptions might be manipulated without the physical world changing. A devil might inflict an illusion or hallucination that only appears in the mind of those affected. It does not necessarily require physical presence or effects for this.

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    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    corporeal body.
    At least you tried an answer!
    I Champion GODís holiness:
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    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    Touching on the OP: Near Death Experiences (NDE's) are VERY real. As someone who has had several out-of-body experiences, I can tell you for a fact that they are NOT merely a construct of the consciousness as one awakens. I've stood in God's Presence and seen the rapture, been to Heaven and can tell you that spirit is MORE real than the physical. Believing that spirit is immaterial simply because our flesh bodies can't see or touch it is an error that is built into a world where God holds His Mystery in secret. I've seen many things which I knew at the time would be erased from my conscious mind when I return to my physical form (or rather wouldn't fit into a finite number of brain cells, since they're a glimpse of the eternal which is infinite). The reason that Paul said he couldn't tell whether he was in his body or not was that you have the same consciousness and self-awareness in spirit form as you do in the flesh and everything is far more real, understandable and your consciousness is expanded in ways that your flesh cannot grasp. God operates above the speed of light (the speed of thought, to be more precise) and in the flesh we see things that are at or below the speed of light.

    But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
    Thank you for your response to my question. Could you please provide an explanation of what an "immaterial spirit" is?

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    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    I would like to get a detailed explanation of what you THINK an "immaterial spirit" is.
    I think an "immaterial spirit" is unimportant and not relevant.
    Anything else would be redundant.

    immaterial
    1. unimportant under the circumstances; irrelevant.
    2. spiritual, rather than physical.

    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    "Then he answered and spoke unto me, saying: 'This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying: Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts." Zechariah Chapter 4:6

    Man's power by itself can neither retard nor advance God's work, that the real motive-power is God's Spirit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Wow, there must be a lot of wicked people and none righteous.

    John 3:12-13 KJV (13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
    First: please remember: "which is in heaven" is to be taken out, as it does not appear in most manuscripts and seems to be a gloss, that is, a word or phrase of interpretation that is written in the margin but is accidentally or purposely moved into the text into later copies.

    Second: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man. EVEN, [except] or [whatever else someone might write into here] is in italics because it is NOT in the text but is supplied to help our interpretation and our understanding, that is, to further the orthodox 'created on earth' theology, falling under the meaning of a gloss, without such identifiers. [ Your version does not seem to conform to the norm to put added in words into some form of identifier that they are theological inserts by use of italics or [ ]s.] We have here the clear declaration that "no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven."

    But since they prove to me that interpretations of a verse can be helped along by adding words, let me suggest some of my own, just as legitimate: just like, along with, the same as etc etc. (Note the use of Italics, eh?)

    Are you prepared to accept that no one has ever gone to heaven except Jesus? Are we supposed to believe that everyone goes somewhere else? And what about Paul? Considering what is commonly termed Paul's ascent into heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4: I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) How that he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter (on Earth).

    Was he deluded? If we believe that some people go into heaven, then, it seems that, according to this verse as it so plainly reads, we must also accept that that is where those persons came from at some time or another.

    Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, Today shall you be with me in paradise. Where was the thief going to be 'today'?
    Strong's G3772 - ouranos heaven
    Strong's G3857 - paradeisos paradise

    Outline of Biblical Usage
    1)N/A
    2) a garden, pleasure ground
    a) grove, park
    3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise
    4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world
    5) heaven

    Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, Today shall you be with me in paradise. Since John knew about this, perhaps he meant something else than it appears on the surface? At least one went up, if you don't like Paul going up, which I do... But the thief could only go up if he first came down, right? <shrug> Sure, this can mean a number of things but it can also mean the thief was in [someplace] with GOD before he came to earth and went back there while the wicked return to Sheol on their death.
    Last edited by ttruscott; January 25th, 2019 at 05:35 PM.
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    I think an "immaterial spirit" is unimportant and not relevant.
    Why do you think this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Why do you think this?
    An "immaterial spirit" is unimportant and not relevant by definition:

    immaterial
    1. unimportant under the circumstances; irrelevant.


    Anything else would be redundant, i.e. a spiritual spirit.

    immaterial
    2. spiritual, rather than physical.

    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Over 6000 post club Aimiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    It seems that you're missing the meaning of the word "immaterial." This present world around us that we manipulate, that has mass and is subject to forces, that is the definition of material. Normally we see and hear and touch but we acknowledge that some things we do not see (easily) like air, some things may be quiet or make sounds on different frequencies, some things may not be easily detected by touch, but the common factor is that they are all subject to those physical laws, they are material. Even air can be condensed or frozen.

    If you are saying that "spirits are material and we are immaterial" then you've made nonsense of the language. The question wasn't whether spirit existed, the question was whether spirit was material. If one passes through the other, then spirit is immaterial to our world.
    I believe that you've hit on a Catch 22. Yes: spirit is 'immaterial' in our world. We are beneath spirit, operating in the temporal realm. Spirit, being more real than the physical, temporal realm we live in isn't comprehended by our finite non-spirit being, other than what we experience through our spirit. This is the reason that Paul described what he saw when he got to visit Heaven: he couldn't tell if he was in his body or out of his body (simply because he knew that he was merely a visitor in Heaven for a few moments and had an appointment to return to his life here) and he felt like the exact same person that he was while on earth but he knew that he was in a higher plane of existence. Having been there, I can tell you that this is something that you simply understand, yet cannot put into words because words simply cannot begin to describe what you saw and most of what is seen doesn't even fit into a finite body. It doesn't make nonsense of the language, it merely dwarfs this limited physical, temporal realm by so much that nothing that we know or understand can begin to measure or accurately describe the things of spirit.
    No Bueno.

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    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    First: please remember: "which is in heaven" is to be taken out, as it does not appear in most manuscripts and seems to be a gloss, that is, a word or phrase of interpretation that is written in the margin but is accidentally or purposely moved into the text into later copies.
    That argument isn't going to gain ground. If you want to discuss the validity of source texts that can be done on its own time. I have no reason to suspect the King James text, it has been tested plenty of times before this and challenges are always found wanting.

    Second: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man. EVEN, [except] or [whatever else someone might write into here] is in italics because it is NOT in the text but is supplied to help our interpretation and our understanding, that is, to further the orthodox 'created on earth' theology, falling under the meaning of a gloss, without such identifiers. [ Your version does not seem to conform to the norm to put added in words into some form of identifier that they are theological inserts by use of italics or [ ]s.] We have here the clear declaration that "no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven."
    "My version" is the traditional authorized version. Nothing unusual or obscure here.... but it has read that way since the days of Wycliffe and Tyndale as well.

    John 3:13 Tyndale (from the Greek, Modern English, sixteenth century)
    (13) And no man ascendeth vp to heaven but he that came doune from heaven that is to saye the sonne of man which is in heaven.

    John 3:13 Wycliffe (from the Latin, Middle English, fourteenth century)
    13 And no man stieth in to heuene, but he that cam doun fro heuene, mannys sone that is in heuene.

    But since they prove to me that interpretations of a verse can be helped along by adding words, let me suggest some of my own, just as legitimate: just like, along with, the same as etc etc. (Note the use of Italics, eh?)
    I am not generally persuaded by arguments that start with omitting part of the scripture and adding other words to change the meaning. I'll try to follow your reasoning as best as I can but I'm sticking with the inspired text.

    Are you prepared to accept that no one has ever gone to heaven except Jesus?
    Yes.

    Are we supposed to believe that everyone goes somewhere else?
    Yes. We are told that there is no man that lives that does not die, and that he cannot deliver his soul from the grave, and man and beast both die. It's a consistent theme of scripture, that unless we have a resurrection from death, that we are without hope, and of all men most miserable...

    So, yes, we are supposed to believe the scripture, and believe that everyone goes somewhere else. It's called death, the grave, hell, also written in Hebrew as sheol and the Greek as hades.

    And what about Paul? Considering what is commonly termed Paul's ascent into heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4: I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) How that he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter (on Earth).

    Was he deluded? If we believe that some people go into heaven, then, it seems that, according to this verse as it so plainly reads, we must also accept that that is where those persons came from at some time or another.
    I remember Paul specifically saying that he was speaking of visions of the Lord. Mind if I look that up for a moment?

    2 Corinthians 12:1 KJV
    (1) It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

    A vision of the Lord in heaven is different than ascending to heaven. Paul wouldn't have been the first to have had a vision of heaven. There's a vision in 1 Kings 22 and 2 Chronicles 18, for example.

    1 Kings 22:19 KJV
    (19) And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

    More examples easily found enough, but point being that a vision of heaven is not ascending to heaven and not existing in heaven.

    Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, Today shall you be with me in paradise.
    Where was the thief going to be 'today'?
    The grave. Death. Hell. The common abode of the dead. Just like Jesus was entering into for the next three days, and confirmed as on the first day of the week he tells Mary that he had not yet ascended to his Father.

    John 20:17 KJV
    (17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


    May I assume that you recognize that "Father" means "our Father which art in heaven" thus indicated by the word "ascended?"

    I don't want to put words into your mouth, but it sounds as if you are reading that passage as if it said, "Verily, Today you will be with me in Paradise" rather than "Verily, to day shalt thou be with me in paradise." "Today you will" would mean that the fulfillment would occur that day, which is no doubt how you are reading it, but "today shalt" means that the promise is made that day, regardless of the time of fulfillment.

    1 Samuel 18:21 KJV
    (21) And Saul said, I will give him her, that she may be a snare to him, and that the hand of the Philistines may be against him. Wherefore Saul said to David, Thou shalt this day be my son in law in the one of the twain.

    Where was David that day? Read what follows when they agree to follow Saul's plan. Besides the negotiations back and forth using servants as messengers, David travels and fights at least two hundred enemy soldiers and brings their foreskins back in a cloth as a present.... and "the days were not expired" it says. Where was David that day then? Not as Saul's son in law, that's for sure.

    There are several other instances of this same pattern of speech "To day shalt" that prove the application. Or if you prefer "The King's English" (a standard publication for English grammar) also explains the difference.

    Spoiler
    Strong's G3772 - ouranos heaven
    Strong's G3857 - paradeisos paradise

    Outline of Biblical Usage
    1)N/A
    2) a garden, pleasure ground
    a) grove, park
    3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise
    4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world
    5) heaven


    Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, Today shall you be with me in paradise. Since John knew about this, perhaps he meant something else than it appears on the surface? At least one went up, if you don't like Paul going up, which I do... But the thief could only go up if he first came down, right? <shrug> Sure, this can mean a number of things but it can also mean the thief was in [someplace] with GOD before he came to earth and went back there while the wicked return to Sheol on their death.
    You're drawing an awful lot of conclusions based on a misreading of the grammar of the traditional text. The "today you will be with me" reading came about only recently in the last hundred years or so. "Today shalt" has been the English reading for as long as we have had the scriptures in English (for the last six hundred years.) You can probably find one of those recent translations and show that, and then I would show you why the traditional translation ("to day shalt thou be with me in Paradise") is correct from other scripture.

    The hope of the Christian is in the resurrection from the dead, not in "ascending to heaven" upon death, which would make the resurrection completely unnecessary. I don't find it hard to believe scripture when it tells us "no man has ascended to heaven." That's what it says, it's fairly simple to believe that is what it means.

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    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    I believe that you've hit on a Catch 22. Yes: spirit is 'immaterial' in our world. We are beneath spirit, operating in the temporal realm. Spirit, being more real than the physical, temporal realm we live in isn't comprehended by our finite non-spirit being, other than what we experience through our spirit. This is the reason that Paul described what he saw when he got to visit Heaven: he couldn't tell if he was in his body or out of his body (simply because he knew that he was merely a visitor in Heaven for a few moments and had an appointment to return to his life here) and he felt like the exact same person that he was while on earth but he knew that he was in a higher plane of existence. Having been there, I can tell you that this is something that you simply understand, yet cannot put into words because words simply cannot begin to describe what you saw and most of what is seen doesn't even fit into a finite body. It doesn't make nonsense of the language, it merely dwarfs this limited physical, temporal realm by so much that nothing that we know or understand can begin to measure or accurately describe the things of spirit.
    This has nothing to do with whether spirit is real, it's about whether spirit is material. Spirit is immaterial by definition, that's what the word means. You can declare that spirit is real and true and all of that and I won't stop you or voice disagreement, but we're talking about basic word meaning here.

    Physical = material
    Air, gas .... not usually called material, but we can let that pass. We can measure it and trap it and even freeze it.
    Spirit = not material

    Again, I emphasize, this is not the word "real" but the word "material" being used here. Google definition, "material definition" tells us:


    adjective
    1. denoting or consisting of physical objects rather than the mind or spirit. "the material world"
    synonyms: physical, corporeal, tangible, nonspiritual, mundane, worldly, earthly, temporal, concrete, real, solid, substantial, secular, lay; rare sublunary "the material rather than the spiritual world"


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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    An "immaterial spirit" is unimportant and not relevant by definition:

    immaterial
    1. unimportant under the circumstances; irrelevant.


    Anything else would be redundant, i.e. a spiritual spirit.

    immaterial
    2. spiritual, rather than physical.

    So, you don't believe there are material spirits?
    And, you believe ANYTHING that is "immaterial" is a spirit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    I am a material spirit, and so are you. EVERY human being is a material spirit.... even false prophets;

    1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

    the words you have written or spoken are immaterial but are information .

    and we are to test the information we receive for truthfulness .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    This has nothing to do with whether spirit is real, it's about whether spirit is material. Spirit is immaterial by definition, that's what the word means.
    We are given what we are given. God has withheld His Mystery and until He decides to release it, there will be things that we don't know or understand. Suffice it to say: spirit is immaterial (from our viewpoint) and will be until that which is temporal is done away with.

    But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    No Bueno.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    We are given what we are given. God has withheld His Mystery and until He decides to release it, there will be things that we don't know or understand. Suffice it to say: spirit is immaterial (from our viewpoint) and will be until that which is temporal is done away with.

    But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    No disagreement here.

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