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Thread: What IS an "immaterial spirit"?

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    What IS an "immaterial spirit"?

    Throughout almost every culture, and religion, there is a myth of "immaterial spirits".
    Not one Scripture treats this idea as legitimate, rather Scripture contradicts and ridicules the notion .... but it is VERY persistent.
    Humans have attempted to find such a thing for MANY years, and the closest anyone has ever come to "evidence" are NDEs.
    I am convinced that in this instance, Science has it right.... NDEs are just "dream states" experienced as the person is regaining consciousness.

    But, I digress.

    I would like to get a detailed explanation of what you THINK an "immaterial spirit" is.

    I have an identical post on another forum, but thought I would ask here also.

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    I have officially closed this irrelevant thread.

    EOT. DOA.RIP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Throughout almost every culture, and religion, there is a myth of "immaterial spirits".
    Not one Scripture treats this idea as legitimate, rather Scripture contradicts and ridicules the notion .... but it is VERY persistent.
    Humans have attempted to find such a thing for MANY years, and the closest anyone has ever come to "evidence" are NDEs.
    I am convinced that in this instance, Science has it right.... NDEs are just "dream states" experienced as the person is regaining consciousness.

    But, I digress.

    I would like to get a detailed explanation of what you THINK an "immaterial spirit" is.

    I have an identical post on another forum, but thought I would ask here also.
    Inasmuch as you, on TOL, persistently call something "the holy spirit", now, with this post, you have just asserted that whatever it is you call "the holy spirit" is material. How much (in lbs.) does whatever it is you call "the holy spirit" weigh? How tall (in feet) would you say it is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    Inasmuch as you, on TOL, persistently call something "the holy spirit", now, with this post, you have just asserted that whatever it is you call "the holy spirit" is material. How much (in lbs.) does whatever it is you call "the holy spirit" weigh? How tall (in feet) would you say it is?
    I would like to get a detailed explanation of what you THINK an "immaterial spirit" is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Throughout almost every culture, and religion, there is a myth of "immaterial spirits".
    Not one Scripture treats this idea as legitimate, rather Scripture contradicts and ridicules the notion .... but it is VERY persistent.
    Humans have attempted to find such a thing for MANY years, and the closest anyone has ever come to "evidence" are NDEs.
    I am convinced that in this instance, Science has it right.... NDEs are just "dream states" experienced as the person is regaining consciousness.

    But, I digress.

    I would like to get a detailed explanation of what you THINK an "immaterial spirit" is.

    I have an identical post on another forum, but thought I would ask here also.
    A material spirit could only be a spirit that had mass and thus could be measured by weight and which could be contained by forces or material substances: gravity, glass walls, and so forth. The only "material spirit" would be of "mineral spirits", alcoholic "spirits", or perhaps the "spirit in our nostrils" (Job 27:3).

    You can buy material spirits here:

    https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/m...-0491017p.html

    It should be plainly evident that all other "spirit" or "spirits" is either the immaterial type of spirit, that which is not matter nor subject to physical laws as we know them, or a metaphor for traits that do not have material form. Jesus himself describes that a spirit is not solid to the touch.

    Luke 24:39 KJV
    (39) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    Or in the case of the spirit that is in man, if it were material then you could contain or trap it in a bottle or a glass cage upon the death of man or beast.

    Ecclesiastes 3:20-21 KJV
    (20) All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
    (21) Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

    And here is an example of its metaphorical use for that which is real but insubstantial (immaterial):

    Numbers 5:30 KJV
    (30) Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.

    I really have to wonder why you would propose this type of challenge.

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    Touching on the OP: Near Death Experiences (NDE's) are VERY real. As someone who has had several out-of-body experiences, I can tell you for a fact that they are NOT merely a construct of the consciousness as one awakens. I've stood in God's Presence and seen the rapture, been to Heaven and can tell you that spirit is MORE real than the physical. Believing that spirit is immaterial simply because our flesh bodies can't see or touch it is an error that is built into a world where God holds His Mystery in secret. I've seen many things which I knew at the time would be erased from my conscious mind when I return to my physical form (or rather wouldn't fit into a finite number of brain cells, since they're a glimpse of the eternal which is infinite). The reason that Paul said he couldn't tell whether he was in his body or not was that you have the same consciousness and self-awareness in spirit form as you do in the flesh and everything is far more real, understandable and your consciousness is expanded in ways that your flesh cannot grasp. God operates above the speed of light (the speed of thought, to be more precise) and in the flesh we see things that are at or below the speed of light.

    But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
    No Bueno.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    Touching on the OP: Near Death Experiences (NDE's) are VERY real. As someone who has had several out-of-body experiences, I can tell you for a fact that they are NOT merely a construct of the consciousness as one awakens. I've stood in God's Presence and seen the rapture, been to Heaven and can tell you that spirit is MORE real than the physical. Believing that spirit is immaterial simply because our flesh bodies can't see or touch it is an error that is built into a world where God holds His Mystery in secret. I've seen many things which I knew at the time would be erased from my conscious mind when I return to my physical form (or rather wouldn't fit into a finite number of brain cells, since they're a glimpse of the eternal which is infinite). The reason that Paul said he couldn't tell whether he was in his body or not was that you have the same consciousness and self-awareness in spirit form as you do in the flesh and everything is far more real, understandable and your consciousness is expanded in ways that your flesh cannot grasp. God operates above the speed of light (the speed of thought, to be more precise) and in the flesh we see things that are at or below the speed of light.

    But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
    Can you trap this "material spirit" in a box then? Or perhaps in a bottle like the mythological genie? If not, then why would you describe it as material?

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    Because in the spirit realm the things of this temporal realm, which is beneath spirit, are 'immaterial' to spirit. God doesn't hover upon His Throne, He SITS upon It.
    No Bueno.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    Because in the spirit realm the things of this temporal realm, which is beneath spirit, are 'immaterial' to spirit. God doesn't hover upon His Throne, He SITS upon It.
    It seems that you're missing the meaning of the word "immaterial." This present world around us that we manipulate, that has mass and is subject to forces, that is the definition of material. Normally we see and hear and touch but we acknowledge that some things we do not see (easily) like air, some things may be quiet or make sounds on different frequencies, some things may not be easily detected by touch, but the common factor is that they are all subject to those physical laws, they are material. Even air can be condensed or frozen.

    If you are saying that "spirits are material and we are immaterial" then you've made nonsense of the language. The question wasn't whether spirit existed, the question was whether spirit was material. If one passes through the other, then spirit is immaterial to our world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Throughout almost every culture, and religion, there is a myth of "immaterial spirits".
    Not one Scripture treats this idea as legitimate, rather Scripture contradicts and ridicules the notion ....
    1 Samuel 28:11 Finally, the woman said, “Well, whose spirit do you want me to call up?”
    “Call up Samuel,” Saul replied. ...
    15 “Why have you disturbed me by calling me back?” Samuel asked Saul.
    Do you think that Samuel had a corporeal body or was he an immaterial spirit?

    What about:
    Ps 9:17 The wicked do turn back / return to Sheol, All nations forgetting God. Going to Sheol is the result of a judgment. The implication is clear. The wicked dead are punished by being sent to Sheol instead of heaven. The word is translated as return 391 times by the biased KJV, just not here in this verse.

    TURN BACK; Strong’s H7725 shb - shoob
    A primitive root; to turn back
    to return, turn back
    • to turn back
    • to return, come or go back
    • to return unto, go back, come back

    So when these wicked return to Sheol, do they go in their bodies or as immaterial but alive Spirits?
    I Champion GODs holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    1 Samuel 28:11 Finally, the woman said, “Well, whose spirit do you want me to call up?”
    “Call up Samuel,” Saul replied. ...
    15 “Why have you disturbed me by calling me back?” Samuel asked Saul.
    Do you think that Samuel had a corporeal body or was he an immaterial spirit?
    corporeal body.
    The translation you have selected does a very biased, poor job. In fact, I haven't been able to find a translation that DOES NOT use "up" in this text.
    1 Sam 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?


    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott
    What about:
    Ps 9:17 The wicked do turn back / return to Sheol, All nations forgetting God. Going to Sheol is the result of a judgment.
    Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott
    The implication is clear. The wicked dead are punished by being sent to Sheol instead of heaven.
    No. "Heaven" isn't mentioned here, or ANYWHERE ELSE IN SCRIPTURE, as the reward of the righteous.
    The wicked dead are punished by being sent BACK to Sheol. They are in the grave, they will be resurrected to judgment, and then RETURNED
    to the grave.
    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott
    The word is translated as return 391 times by the biased KJV, just not here in this verse.

    TURN BACK; Strong’s H7725 shb - shoob
    A primitive root; to turn back
    to return, turn back
    • to turn back
    • to return, come or go back
    • to return unto, go back, come back
    Absolutely!
    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott
    So when these wicked return to Sheol, do they go in their bodies or as immaterial but alive Spirits?
    In their bodies!!
    There is no life without a body!
    EVERY being is a physical being.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    A material spirit could only be a spirit that had mass and thus could be measured by weight and which could be contained by forces or material substances: gravity, glass walls, and so forth. The only "material spirit" would be of "mineral spirits", alcoholic "spirits", or perhaps the "spirit in our nostrils" (Job 27:3).
    I am a material spirit, and so are you. EVERY human being is a material spirit.... even false prophets;

    1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter
    It should be plainly evident that all other "spirit" or "spirits" is either the immaterial type of spirit, that which is not matter nor subject to physical laws as we know them ....
    Hmmm.... what would be your support for this idea, and how does an "immaterial spirit" retain any knowledge, identity or thinking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter
    ...or a metaphor for traits that do not have material form.
    I agree with this definition for "spirit", there are several ways "spirit" is used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter
    Jesus himself describes that a spirit is not solid to the touch.

    Luke 24:39 KJV
    (39) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    Or in the case of the spirit that is in man, if it were material then you could contain or trap it in a bottle or a glass cage upon the death of man or beast.

    Ecclesiastes 3:20-21 KJV
    (20) All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
    (21) Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

    And here is an example of its metaphorical use for that which is real but insubstantial (immaterial):

    Numbers 5:30 KJV
    (30) Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.

    I really have to wonder why you would propose this type of challenge.
    I am well aware of these passages, and the distortions of them. What I am asking for is what people THINK "immaterial spirits" are.
    How does an "immaterial ... nothing" think? Or move? Or, cause people to hurt themselves?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    1 Samuel 28:11 Finally, the woman said, “Well, whose spirit do you want me to call up?”
    “Call up Samuel,” Saul replied. ...
    15 “Why have you disturbed me by calling me back?” Samuel asked Saul.
    Do you think that Samuel had a corporeal body or was he an immaterial spirit?

    What about:
    Ps 9:17 The wicked do turn back / return to Sheol, All nations forgetting God. Going to Sheol is the result of a judgment. The implication is clear. The wicked dead are punished by being sent to Sheol instead of heaven. The word is translated as return 391 times by the biased KJV, just not here in this verse.

    TURN BACK; Strong’s H7725 shb - shoob
    A primitive root; to turn back
    to return, turn back
    • to turn back
    • to return, come or go back
    • to return unto, go back, come back

    So when these wicked return to Sheol, do they go in their bodies or as immaterial but alive Spirits?
    Wow, there must be a lot of wicked people and none righteous.

    John 3:12-13 KJV
    (12) If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
    (13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    I am a material spirit, and so are you. EVERY human being is a material spirit.... even false prophets;

    1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.


    Or, you know, it could be talking about actual spirits. You know when you hear someone claim to have received direct revelation from God himself or an angel and they expect to be believed? Just like that? So when one of these appears to you, how do you determine whether it is a legitimate vision from God or a rogue "angel of light?"

    Although I recognize that the principle is universal, there's no reason to think that "spirits" here are anything other than "spirits" meaning the angels, devils, or even our imaginations.

    Hmmm.... what would be your support for this idea, and how does an "immaterial spirit" retain any knowledge, identity or thinking?
    We don't even officially understand how our OWN brains work, and you're asking me for how beings of pure spirit retain knowledge and process thought? Support from this idea is simple, you're not able to trap the devil in an iron box, or a glass bottle, or a Faraday cage. Or simpler than that is the definition of the word "material."

    Maybe you mean something else and you just chose the wrong word, but "material" means something within our physical universe. Spirits are not physical by definition. Immaterial spirits is a redundant term, because all spirits are immaterial by nature.

    I am well aware of these passages, and the distortions of them. What I am asking for is what people THINK "immaterial spirits" are.
    How does an "immaterial ... nothing" think? Or move? Or, cause people to hurt themselves?
    I gave some examples of immaterial spirits. Angels and devils and God Himself are immaterial spirits. The breath of life that animates living flesh is immaterial, it' s something we can observe the effects of but it itself our instruments cannot measure. The spirit in man and beast is immaterial.

    So you're asking how a (thinking) spirit thinks? It's a better question to ask how we think. Our physical brains seem to be used to store data, but if that was all there was to it we'd be nothing but robot machines without free will. Considering that we aren't able to see the world of spirit without special guidance, we cannot presume to think we can understand spirit biology. We know spirits do think and talk with God, so we can leave it like that. How can they cause people to hurt themselves? I've heard that "possession" can have that type of side-effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    [/COLOR]Or, you know, it could be talking about actual spirits. You know when you hear someone claim to have received direct revelation from God himself or an angel and they expect to be believed?
    Exactly, and we are instructed to "try" them, and see if they are legit. The text is talking about "false prophets" correct?
    1 John 4:5-6 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter
    Just like that? So when one of these appears to you, how do you determine whether it is a legitimate vision from God or a rogue "angel of light?"

    Although I recognize that the principle is universal, there's no reason to think that "spirits" here are anything other than "spirits" meaning the angels, devils, or even our imaginations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter
    We don't even officially understand how our OWN brains work, and you're asking me for how beings of pure spirit retain knowledge and process thought?
    We know a LOT about how our own brains work, and how to stop it from working, and how to alter how it works, and what kind of trauma, or chemicals can alter thought/spirit. Every bit of that is "material". So, do you have any idea how an "immaterial" brain would work?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter
    Support from this idea is simple, you're not able to trap the devil in an iron box, or a glass bottle, or a Faraday cage.
    Really? Have you tried this? Do you know anyone that has proven this? This is an interesting claim, but I am suspicious it is just a guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter
    Or simpler than that is the definition of the word "material."

    Maybe you mean something else and you just chose the wrong word, but "material" means something within our physical universe. Spirits are not physical by definition. Immaterial spirits is a redundant term, because all spirits are immaterial by nature.
    First, thank you for your thoughtful answer to my question. I think your's is the most complete answer I have received so far.
    Second, you mentioned "by definition", and "by nature" ... do you perchance have any Scripture that defines "immaterial" beings? Or, that clearly states their "nature"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter
    I gave some examples of immaterial spirits. Angels and devils and God Himself are immaterial spirits.
    Yes, you have offered this information. So, now I'm curious, what makes you think this?

    The breath of life that animates living flesh is immaterial, it' s something we can observe the effects of but it itself our instruments cannot measure. The spirit in man and beast is immaterial.

    So you're asking how a (thinking) spirit thinks? It's a better question to ask how we think. Our physical brains seem to be used to store data, but if that was all there was to it we'd be nothing but robot machines without free will.
    Really? Why do you think that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter
    Considering that we aren't able to see the world of spirit without special guidance, we cannot presume to think we can understand spirit biology.
    What is a "world of spirit"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter
    We know spirits do think and talk with God, so we can leave it like that. How can they cause people to hurt themselves? I've heard that "possession" can have that type of side-effect.
    This doesn't address HOW the immaterial can manipulate the material. Could you expand on this idea?

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