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Thread: Objective Moral Values, God's Law, and the New Covenant.

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    Objective Moral Values, God's Law, and the New Covenant.

    What are objective moral values? Do they allow for the Law of Moses or New Covenant Law?

    For something to be considered moral must it be a part of God's Law?
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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    People say that objective moral values and duties do exist, etc....

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    What is an objective moral value?

    Or

    What are objective moral values?
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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    objective moral value

    A proposition is objective if its truth value is independent of the person uttering it. A fact is objective in the same way. For morality to be objective, moral propositions such as "Killing is bad","Stealing is bad", etc... need to be true independently of the person who is stating them.

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    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    What are objective moral values?
    When I think of objective morality, what I think of is what is objectively determinable. For example, say killing is wrong, we can objectively perceive whether someone is objectively guilty of killing. But then there are circumstances that do not negate an objective moral offense, but can diminish, attenuate, or nullify altogether any imputable guilt or culpability to the objective moral offender, for example if you kill in self defense or in defense of an innocent person, then your guilt for the objective moral offense of killing is not imputed to you. It doesn't mean that killing is now moral, it means that sometimes, an objective moral offense is not entirely or at all due to your free will, and so you are not fully or even at all guilty of the objective moral offense, in certain circumstances that render you less than completely free in your decision to commit an objective moral offense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Do they allow for the Law of Moses or New Covenant Law?
    Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    For something to be considered moral must it be a part of God's Law?
    No. Most people are moral or believe in some morality, no matter whether they believe in God, or in some other deity, or in no gods at all (atheist). None of them think that morality comes from God, even though the authentic Christian faith believes that authentic morality does come from God.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    When I think of objective morality, what I think of is what is objectively determinable. For example, say killing is wrong, we can objectively perceive whether someone is objectively guilty of killing. But then there are circumstances that do not negate an objective moral offense, but can diminish, attenuate, or nullify altogether any imputable guilt or culpability to the objective moral offender, for example if you kill in self defense or in defense of an innocent person, then your guilt for the objective moral offense of killing is not imputed to you. It doesn't mean that killing is now moral, it means that sometimes, an objective moral offense is not entirely or at all due to your free will, and so you are not fully or even at all guilty of the objective moral offense, in certain circumstances that render you less than completely free in your decision to commit an objective moral offense.
    Yes.
    No. Most people are moral or believe in some morality, no matter whether they believe in God, or in some other deity, or in no gods at all (atheist). None of them think that morality comes from God, even though the authentic Christian faith believes that authentic morality does come from God.
    There is a difference between an objective moral value and if someone has done something that is objectively wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    There is a difference between an objective moral value and if someone has done something that is objectively wrong.
    I see that the way you're using "objective," that this is the case.

    I offered up another meaning for "objective moral" for thought.

    'Idea being, that whatever morality we're discussing, there is the moral offense itself, which is objectively determinable (whether someone did it or not), and then there is what's 'behind the scenes' within the mind of the objective moral offender, such as for example, were they coerced in any way, was there a credible threat on an innocent person's life /limb, anything that might render what they did, not fully attributable to their own free will choice.

    In such a case, while the determination of whether a moral offense has been committed (objectively) is untouched, the guilt imputed to the offender might be less than complete, even completely nullified, again due to certain circumstances that render the offender's choice something less than completely due to their free will.

    Just food for thought.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    I see that the way you're using "objective," that this is the case.

    I offered up another meaning for "objective moral" for thought.

    'Idea being, that whatever morality we're discussing, there is the moral offense itself, which is objectively determinable (whether someone did it or not), and then there is what's 'behind the scenes' within the mind of the objective moral offender, such as for example, were they coerced in any way, was there a credible threat on an innocent person's life /limb, anything that might render what they did, not fully attributable to their own free will choice.

    In such a case, while the determination of whether a moral offense has been committed (objectively) is untouched, the guilt imputed to the offender might be less than complete, even completely nullified, again due to certain circumstances that render the offender's choice something less than completely due to their free will.

    Just food for thought.
    People are influenced by others and people make their own decisions, so who is responsible?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    objective moral value

    A proposition is objective if its truth value is independent of the person uttering it. A fact is objective in the same way. For morality to be objective, moral propositions such as "Killing is bad","Stealing is bad", etc... need to be true independently of the person who is stating them.
    There is no such thing as truly objective morality, but there is such a thing as apparently objective morality.
    Some people have attempted to tie morality to the notion of harm, claiming that if something causes harm then it is immoral (and the opposite is that everything that does not cause harm is moral).
    This does not work, because whether something causes harm is subjective and changeable (what did not cause harm last year is now thought of as causing harm this year).

    Apparently objective morality is a morality that appears objective to us because it is applied universally to all of mankind but is entirely subjective to God (whatever God deems is immoral at the judgment is immoral and whatever God deems is moral at the judgment is moral).

    Because God is the only true judge of what is moral and what is immoral, the commandment "thou shalt not kill" applies as a general rule that killing another person is immoral, but killing another person is not an immoral act under all circumstances.

    God has given us a conscience that usually works well for most people in identifying what is moral and what is immoral.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    There is no such thing as truly objective morality, but there is such a thing as apparently objective morality.
    Some people have attempted to tie morality to the notion of harm, claiming that if something causes harm then it is immoral (and the opposite is that everything that does not cause harm is moral).
    This does not work, because whether something causes harm is subjective and changeable (what did not cause harm last year is now thought of as causing harm this year).

    Apparently objective morality is a morality that appears objective to us because it is applied universally to all of mankind but is entirely subjective to God (whatever God deems is immoral at the judgment is immoral and whatever God deems is moral at the judgment is moral).

    Because God is the only true judge of what is moral and what is immoral, the commandment "thou shalt not kill" applies as a general rule that killing another person is immoral, but killing another person is not an immoral act under all circumstances.

    God has given us a conscience that usually works well for most people in identifying what is moral and what is immoral.
    Can it be said that something is wrong? Because we should not have to wait until the judgment to find out.

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    What kind of things can be said to be objectively wrong? What is an example of an objective moral value?
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    What kind of things can be said to be objectively wrong?
    Murder---not unqualified killing, but murder---can be said to be objectively wrong. Murder is the unjustified killing of an innocent person. Another definition of murder is killing with malice aforethought.

    Objectively it's very easy to determine whether someone has killed. It's trickier to determine whether a killing is also a murder. Our criminal justice system helps to determine that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    What is an example of an objective moral value?
    Are you searching for something determinable from outside of faith in God? I personally don't believe that there is objective morality aside from believing in God. In fact, if someone does believe in objective morality at all, even if they claim to not believe in God, then they do believe in God, since I don't believe that objective morality is real, aside from God also being real.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Can it be said that something is wrong?
    Sure, but what is wrong in most circumstances may not be wrong in all circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Because we should not have to wait until the judgment to find out.
    God has given us a conscience that usually works well for most people in identifying what is moral and what is immoral.

    Romans 2:13-15
    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )


    But, there are people that it doesn't work for:

    1 Timothy 4:2
    2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;


    People that have lost the ability to tell what is moral and what is immoral can have that ability restored.

    Psalm 51:10
    10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Murder---not unqualified killing, but murder---can be said to be objectively wrong. Murder is the unjustified killing of an innocent person. Another definition of murder is killing with malice aforethought.

    Objectively it's very easy to determine whether someone has killed. It's trickier to determine whether a killing is also a murder. Our criminal justice system helps to determine that.
    Are you searching for something determinable from outside of faith in God? I personally don't believe that there is objective morality aside from believing in God. In fact, if someone does believe in objective morality at all, even if they claim to not believe in God, then they do believe in God, since I don't believe that objective morality is real, aside from God also being real.
    So, murder is objectively wrong.

    With God. Though someone may come to the conclusion that objective moral values exist without first believing in God. It may be more difficult than believing in God first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Sure, but what is wrong in most circumstances may not be wrong in all circumstances.


    God has given us a conscience that usually works well for most people in identifying what is moral and what is immoral.

    Romans 2:13-15
    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )


    But, there are people that it doesn't work for:

    1 Timothy 4:2
    2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;


    People that have lost the ability to tell what is moral and what is immoral can have that ability restored.

    Psalm 51:10
    10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
    This would be a good prayer to pray, if a prayer. What might be objectively wrong in one circumstance but not in another? Would it then not be objectively wrong?

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