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Thread: Objective Moral Values, God's Law, and the New Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    What might be objectively wrong in one circumstance but not in another? Would it then not be objectively wrong?
    Coveting is apparently objectively wrong and is even compared to idolatry.

    Romans 13:9
    9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    Colossians 3:5
    5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:


    But it is not always wrong to covet.

    1 Corinthians 12:31
    31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
    1 Corinthians 14:39
    39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Coveting is apparently objectively wrong and is even compared to idolatry.

    Romans 13:9
    9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    Colossians 3:5
    5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:


    But it is not always wrong to covet.

    1 Corinthians 12:31
    31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
    1 Corinthians 14:39
    39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
    Can you show the Hebrew and Greek words from your post relating to the word covet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Can you show the Hebrew and Greek words from your post relating to the word covet?
    Oh, I see.
    The two are different words in Greek, so are not speaking of the same type of coveting.

    Thou shalt not covet:
    g1937 ἐπιθυμέω epithymeō
    Covet the best gifts and to prophesy:
    g2206 ζηλόω zēloō
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Oh, I see.
    The two are different words in Greek, so are not speaking of the same type of coveting.

    Thou shalt not covet:
    g1937 ἐπιθυμέω epithymeō
    Covet the best gifts and to prophesy:
    g2206 ζηλόω zēloō
    Apparently then there are different kinds of coveting or that is the word that we use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Apparently then there are different kinds of coveting or that is the word that we use.
    I believe it is a mistranslation.
    g2206 ζηλόω zēloō is about zealously striving for something good.

    g1937 ἐπιθυμέω epithymeō is about lusting after something forbidden.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    I believe it is a mistranslation.
    g2206 ζηλόω zēloō is about zealously striving for something good.

    g1937 ἐπιθυμέω epithymeō is about lusting after something forbidden.
    I am sure that there is more to learn. Speaking in English one might use the word covet when a better word could be used.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    in beginning he created gods the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    What are objective moral values? Do they allow for the Law of Moses or New Covenant Law?

    For something to be considered moral must it be a part of God's Law?
    Objective moral values stand on the baseline that an innocent person won't get harmed. It should be a subset of God's Law. However God's Law may have more than that. The baseline of God's Law is set forth on what God hates and what God likes. In the end, both angels and humans (or any other entities with freewill) need to respect and abide by in order to live with God in the eternal realm we call Heaven.

    However an innocent person can get harmed can be different from different perspectives. In a human perspective, this refers to how a human's physical life being harmed by physical damage, mental damage, psychological damage and etc. That's how human morality is based off.

    In God's perspective however, an innocent person is harmed if his soul is savable but not due to God didn't put effort, and that person winds up in an eternal hell.

    God and humans don't have the same baseline of morality. Human morality is based off human bodies while God's morality is based off souls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
    Objective moral values stand on the baseline that an innocent person won't get harmed. It should be a subset of God's Law. However God's Law may have more than that. The baseline of God's Law is set forth on what God hates and what God likes. In the end, both angels and humans (or any other entities with freewill) need to respect and abide by in order to live with God in the eternal realm we call Heaven.

    However an innocent person can get harmed can be different from different perspectives. In a human perspective, this refers to how a human's physical life being harmed by physical damage, mental damage, psychological damage and etc. That's how human morality is based off.

    In God's perspective however, an innocent person is harmed if his soul is savable but not due to God didn't put effort, and that person winds up in an eternal hell.

    God and humans don't have the same baseline of morality. Human morality is based off human bodies while God's morality is based off souls.
    I am not sure what you mean. I do know that even a moral person may be harmed or punished if they do not believe truth from God, by God.

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    I believe that objective moral values are values that maintain no matter the circumstance and are unbiased. The law of Moses is a circumstantial type of moral system, where you are allowed to harm people if someone has done it to you. That is why it is considered the lower law. It may be considered moral enough from subjective views, but I think the fact that it is circumstantial means it is not objective. The new commandment is not a biased set of moral values and principles. Love one another is not subjective to who you wish to love. At least that is my view on it. I hope that's what you were asking about. If you have any questions, feel free to ask me? I love this question by the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolguar View Post
    I believe that objective moral values are values that maintain no matter the circumstance and are unbiased. The law of Moses is a circumstantial type of moral system, where you are allowed to harm people if someone has done it to you. That is why it is considered the lower law. It may be considered moral enough from subjective views, but I think the fact that it is circumstantial means it is not objective. The new commandment is not a biased set of moral values and principles. Love one another is not subjective to who you wish to love. At least that is my view on it. I hope that's what you were asking about. If you have any questions, feel free to ask me? I love this question by the way.

    Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk
    The Law of Moses involves equity in judgment but not vengeance or retribution. There has to be a court or judge for eye for an eye hand for a hand tooth for a tooth life for a life judgment. It may be a value rather than equal harm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    What are objective moral values? Do they allow for the Law of Moses or New Covenant Law?

    For something to be considered moral must it be a part of God's Law?
    Oh, a fun topic. Let us start with the basics. First off, what is morality? Morality is a doctrine/system of morals (dictionary.com) that serve to guide our actions towards some goal(s). There are, of course, many competing philosophies concerning morality, and they tend to conflict concerning core priorities, values, and beliefs.

    To study morality objectively, however, we must consider what - objectively - should such a system's purpose be. Is there, in fact, any objective need to establish within society a moral philosophy to begin with? Or are we unnecessarily over complicating things?

    Let us note that without laws (and a country's laws are effectively a form of morality), all manner of destructive deeds take place. Stealing, theft, murder, pollution, bribery, black-mail, racism, etc, etc. These things still can and do happen even with laws/moral system in place, but without anything to restrain people or to teach them differently - these things would go on uninhibited. Society would then necessarily break down into war and chaos.

    Man is a social animal whose survival and well-being is dependent upon society. But in order to have a stable, healthy society where man can thrive, those within a society need to be able to trust one another and expect a certain level of respect. For instance: if you had stuff you valued, but couldn't trust leaving your house for fear everything would get stolen, would you want to remain in such a society? If you couldn't be confident that some passing stranger wasn't going to murder, rob, or rape you as you passed by - would you want to remain in such a society? Of course not. You no longer have a society at this point - but a bunch of individuals who are threatened by everyone they come across.

    So it is objective to state that man requires morality - for it serves as the foundation of society. You cannot have a healthy society, the bedrock of mankind, without morality.

    As for the contents of such an objective moral system, we've already laid down some guiding principles with the above observation. The purpose of an objective moral system is to bring people together, to create unity, harmony, trust, forgiveness, etc. amongst mankind so that we can thrive - individually and as a whole.

    And, to tie this back to scripture, the guiding principle that optimally fulfills this role is none other than love.

    Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.
    If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolguar View Post
    I believe that objective moral values are values that maintain no matter the circumstance and are unbiased. The law of Moses is a circumstantial type of moral system, where you are allowed to harm people if someone has done it to you. That is why it is considered the lower law. It may be considered moral enough from subjective views, but I think the fact that it is circumstantial means it is not objective. The new commandment is not a biased set of moral values and principles. Love one another is not subjective to who you wish to love. At least that is my view on it. I hope that's what you were asking about. If you have any questions, feel free to ask me? I love this question by the way.

    Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk
    I definitely agree with the idea that - taken at a purely law of the land, literal level - the Law of Moses (or any governments laws) are a lower law. Justice and Judgement are necessities to address sin and the damage caused by it. Without appropriate checks on people's selfishness and greed, we would destroy ourselves.

    That said, ideally we don't require brute force enforcement of laws to make people behave like decent human beings. If fear of punishment is the only thing to keep people from breaking the law, then society isn't going to last very long. People need to understand and value the underlying principles behind the laws such that they want to uphold them because they are good. And when people break the law, we should approach them with mercy. If they are willing to repent and make amends, then we should forgive them.

    James 2:12-13 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

    That said, I disagree with the notion that if something is conditional that it isn't objective. Love is the abstract guiding principle, the truest essence of the Law. The specific literal commandments are the application of this principle to specific scenarios. That is why it is said that love fulfills all of the Law. Understanding both the abstract principles and learning how to apply them to specific scenarios are both important. And by studying how the law addresses specific scenarios, you can work back to the underlying principles. They go hand-in-hand.
    If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Murder---not unqualified killing, but murder---can be said to be objectively wrong. Murder is the unjustified killing of an innocent person. Another definition of murder is killing with malice aforethought.
    Right.....so this demonstrates that murder is not actually objectively wrong. You have a Muslim extremist who believes that beheading a Christian is a good deed. To this person, murder is not only objectively immoral, it is a pleasing act in the eyes of God.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csuguy View Post
    Oh, a fun topic. Let us start with the basics. First off, what is morality? Morality is a doctrine/system of morals (dictionary.com) that serve to guide our actions towards some goal(s). There are, of course, many competing philosophies concerning morality, and they tend to conflict concerning core priorities, values, and beliefs.

    To study morality objectively, however, we must consider what - objectively - should such a system's purpose be. Is there, in fact, any objective need to establish within society a moral philosophy to begin with? Or are we unnecessarily over complicating things?

    Let us note that without laws (and a country's laws are effectively a form of morality), all manner of destructive deeds take place. Stealing, theft, murder, pollution, bribery, black-mail, racism, etc, etc. These things still can and do happen even with laws/moral system in place, but without anything to restrain people or to teach them differently - these things would go on uninhibited. Society would then necessarily break down into war and chaos.

    Man is a social animal whose survival and well-being is dependent upon society. But in order to have a stable, healthy society where man can thrive, those within a society need to be able to trust one another and expect a certain level of respect. For instance: if you had stuff you valued, but couldn't trust leaving your house for fear everything would get stolen, would you want to remain in such a society? If you couldn't be confident that some passing stranger wasn't going to murder, rob, or rape you as you passed by - would you want to remain in such a society? Of course not. You no longer have a society at this point - but a bunch of individuals who are threatened by everyone they come across.

    So it is objective to state that man requires morality - for it serves as the foundation of society. You cannot have a healthy society, the bedrock of mankind, without morality.

    As for the contents of such an objective moral system, we've already laid down some guiding principles with the above observation. The purpose of an objective moral system is to bring people together, to create unity, harmony, trust, forgiveness, etc. amongst mankind so that we can thrive - individually and as a whole.

    And, to tie this back to scripture, the guiding principle that optimally fulfills this role is none other than love.

    Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.
    Certainly man is not an animal. But morals are about doing what is right. Or about right and wrong or where we are wrong. Do you know about the gospel of Jesus Christ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Certainly man is not an animal. But morals are about doing what is right. Or about right and wrong or where we are wrong.
    Yes - but what is "right," what is "wrong"? There must be some underlying principle(s) to a moral system/philosophy in order to evaluate whether an action is good or bad - and thus serve to guide our decisions. I argue that in an objective morality the fundamental underlying principle is love, just as in Christianity (ie, the morality put forth by Christ is objective).

    Do you know about the gospel of Jesus Christ?
    Si seniora
    If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

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