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Thread: Trinity Proof Scriptures

  1. #46
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    A Father without a child is not a Father.

    Please show us "God the Father" in the old testament.

    Malachi 2:10
    10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  2. #47
    TOL Legend john w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    So you cannot tell the difference between the first created man (from the dust of the ground, Gen 2:7) and the WORD (Who was God, John 1:1) that was made flesh (John 1:14)? Got it.

    In what SENSE is "our Father" used in Isaiah? "THOU ARE OUR POTTER"... again referring to CREATED beings, unlike the WORD, Who was God, made flesh

    Even the unbelieving Jews of Jesus' day understood Jesus' claim about HIS Father:

    Joh 5:17-18 KJV But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. (18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    Note carefully that Jesus does not say OUR Father,... but MY Father.
    I don't recall God the Father ever saying, in Matthew-John,"I am God."


    The Lord Jesus Christ did testify to that.

    Get it? Others testified to the Lord Jesus Christ being God, and each individual must.
    Saint John W

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  4. #48
    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    I was discussing the OP, which I didn't write..
    And?

    so this isn't about ANY assumptions I have made.
    Sure it is.

    Hasty generalization, much?


    It isn't required for salvation
    Who said anything about salvation? I didn't.

    to use the title "Holy Bible", your point is the true non sequitur.


    I don't even think you know what that means...

    I wasn't quoting, any more than you were with your warped comments.
    Sure you were. You quoted verbatim what the verse says. Perhaps not intentionally, but you did quote it.

    Who's the one trying to obfuscate again?

    Which shows you're attempting to obfuscate.
    Nope.

    Those mean precisely the same thing.
    Saying it is so does not make it so.

    You need to go back to grammar school if you think that.

    [that] [they] [might know] [You], [the] [only] [true] [God]
    [conjunction] [pronoun] [verb] [pronoun], [definite article] [adjective] [adjective] [Proper noun]

    The two adjectives are describing God, not "You" in that verse.

    Jesus praying to his Father, and saying;
    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
    "The only true God" is describing "You."

    "Whom you have sent" is describing "Jesus Christ."

    They are two separate phrases joined by a conjunction, the word "and".

    is CLEARLY discussing two phrases, as I outlined.
    Here's where you're confused.

    The word "only" is describing "God", not "You".

    The phrase "the only true God" is describing "You."

    You keep asserting (and I will quote you if necessary to show that I'm not misrepresenting your position) that the word "only" is describing "You."

    That is what I'm trying to explain to you.

    Gotta head into town, I plan to address the rest later.

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  6. #49
    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Wouldn't that be refreshing?.... instead of all of the vicious straw-man beatings that we commonly see.
    Speaking of straw men...
    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Trinitarian: The Bible says the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit make up the Trinity.

    Non-Trinitarian: Where?

    Trinitarian: Everywhere. It is in every verse of the Bible.

    Non-Trinitarian: Can you show me any verse that says that?

    Trinitarian: Yes. Does the Bible refer to three distinct persons?

    Non-Trinitarian: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Mark 12:26)? Noah, Daniel, and Job (Ezekiel 14:14,20)?

    Trinitarian: No, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19). These three are one (1 John 5:7).

    Non-Trinitarian: The three agree in one (1 John 5:8).

    Trinitarian: The three are one! The three are one being! The Bible says so.

    Non-Trinitarian: It doesn't look like it to me. If believing in the Trinity is so important, wouldn't it be easier to find the verses that teach the Trinity?

    Trinitarian: Prove that the God is not a Trinity.

    Non-Trinitarian: The concept of the Trinity violates every rule of grammar and logic.

    Trinitarian: Prove it.

    Non-Trinitarian: 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. "Sent His Son" does not mean "went himself."

    Trinitarian: No, no no. Prove that the God is not a Trinity.

    Non-Trinitarian: You can't prove a negative.

    Trinitarian: The Bible proves that the God IS a Trinity!

    Non-Trinitarian: I have read through the entire Bible many times and it never says anything about God being a Trinity.

    Trinitarian: The Trinity is in every verse of the Bible. The Trinity created the heaven and the earth.

    Non-Trinitarian: The Trinity is not in the Bible anywhere. The entire concept of the Trinity seems to have come from nothing.

    Trinitarian: "Come from nothing" is ex nihilo, and only God can create ex nihilo, therefore the concept of the Trinity was created by God.

    Non-Trinitarian: I suppose that is as close to proving the Trinity as you will ever get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Malachi 2:10
    10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
    The Father/Son relationship that Jesus and HIS Father have is not one of CREATOR and CREATED.... John 1:1, 1:14
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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  10. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    Vs.


    Matthew 23 KJV
    13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

    29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

    Matthew 12 KJV
    39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

    John 6 KJV
    70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?


    Contrasts.
    Matt 5:21-22
    21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
    22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
    KJV

  11. #52
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    Done and done:
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    True Christians from the days of the Apostles to the present have believed that there is one God existing in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. There are not three Gods but only one God.

    The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not one-third God each, or parts of God, but are all fully God of one indivisible essence, power and eternity.

    The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not three manifestations of one God. Each is completely equal, possessing the full divine nature.

    When the Bible teaches that God is three Persons, it does not mean that there are three individuals “but only personal self-distinctions with the Divine essence, which is not only generically, but also numerically one.” So when cults say that Jesus was just a man or the first created being, they woefully err. They place their misconceptions of what God must be like above what the Bible clearly teaches. Admittedly, the doctrine of the trinity is hard to comprehend yet it is clearly taught in the Bible and therefore must be believed

    To substantiate the doctrine of the Trinity, six and only six points need to be demonstrated from Scripture:

    1. There is only one true God.
    2. The Father is God.
    3. The Son is God.
    4. The Holy Spirit is a Person (see discussion of “person” below).
    5. The Holy Spirit is God.
    6. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct subsistences from each other.

    1. There is only one true God:

    OT: Exod 8:10; 9:14; 15:11; Deut 4:35,39; 6:4; 10:14; 32:39; 33:26; Josh 2:11; 1Sam 2:2; 2Sam 7:22; 1Ki 8:23,60; 2Ki 5:15;1Chr 16:26; 17:20; Neh 9:6; Ps 18:31; 71:19; 86:8-10; 96:5; 113:4f; Isa 37:16,20; 43:10f; 44:6,8; 45:5f,14,18,21f; 46:5,9f; Jer 10:6-10; Hos 13:4; Zech 14:9; Mal 2:10.

    NT: Mark 12:29,32; John 5:44; 17:3; 1Cor 8:4-6; Gal 3:20; Eph 4:6; 1Tim 2:5.

    2. The Father is God:

    OT: Deut 32:6; Ps 89:26; Isa 63:16; 64:8; Mal 1:6; 2:10.

    NT: Matt 6:9; John 6:27; 20:17; Rom 1:7; 1Cor 1:3; Eph 1:2; 4:6; 5:20; 6:23; Phil 1:2; 2:11; 4:20; Col 1:2; 3:17; 1Thes 1:1,3; 3:11,13; 2Thes 1:1f; 2:16; 1Tim 1:2; Phlm 1:3; Jude 1:1.

    3. The Son is God:

    A) Called God or Ascribed Deity:

    OT: Gen 19:24; Ps 45:7; Isa 7:14; 9:6; Jer 23:5f; Zech 2:8-3:2; 12:1,10

    NT: Matt 1:22f; John 1:1; 5:18; 20:28; Acts 20:28; Rom 8:9; 9:5; Phil 2:5-9; Col 2:9; 1Tim 3:16; Titus 2:13; Heb 1:3,8-12; 2Pet 1:1; 1John 5:20.

    B) Possess the Attributes of God.

    1) Personal: All of Jesus’ interactions with people in the Gospels are proof of His personhood (e.g, Matt 3:13-15; 4:18-22; 8:1-22; 9:1-38). Jesus is also specifically said to possess wisdom (Luke 2:52), a will (Luke 22:42), and a mind (1Cor 2:16; Phil 2:5).

    2) Creator and Sustainer: John 1:3; Col 1:16f; Heb 1:2 (cp. Job 9:8; Isa 44:24).

    3) Live Giver: John 1:4; 4:10-14; 5:21; 6:40, 44; 11:25; Acts 3:15; 1Cor 15:45; 1John 5:11; Rev 1:18.

    4) Spirit/ Invisible: Not applicable due to the incarnation. Jesus now has a real physical body.

    5) Omnipresent: Matt 18:20; 28:20; John 1:48; 3:13; Eph 1:22f; 4:10.

    6) Omniscient: Matt 9:4; 11:27; 12:25; Mark 2:8; 12:15; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 9:47; 11:17; John 2:23-25; 4:16-18; 16:30; 21:17; Rev 2:23.

    7) Knows the Future: Matt 16:21; 17:22f; 20:17-19,22f; 24:1-25; 26:21-25,31-35; Mark 8:31; 9:31; 13:1-23; 14:27-30,72; Luke 9:22,44; 18:31-33; 21:5-24; 22:10-13; John 2:19; 6:64,70f; 13:11,36-38; 21:18f.

    8) Omnipotent: Matt 28:18; Phil 3:20f; Rev 1:8; 3:7.

    9) Sovereign: Dan 7:13f; Matt 17:24-27; 28:18; Acts 10:36; Eph 1:20-22; Heb 1:3.

    10) King over all the earth/ King of kings: Psalm 45:1-7; Dan 7:13f; Matt 25:34,40; John 18:37; Heb 1:8; Rev 11:15; 17:14; 19:16.

    11) Lord of all the earth/ Lord of lords: Matt 11:27; Phil 2:9-11; Acts 10:36; Rom 10:12; Rev 17:14; 19:16.

    12) God over all false gods/ God of gods: John 10:31-39; Acts 17:18,31; 1Cor 8:5f.

    13) Incomprehensible: Matt 11:27; Eph 3:19.

    14) Eternal (The First and the Last/ The Alpha and Omega/ The Beginning and End): Isa 9:6; Micah 5:2; John 1:1; 17:5,24; Col 1:17; Heb 1:8,10f; 7:3; Rev 1:8,11,17f; 2:8; 11:15; 22:12-16.

    15) Self-Existent (I Am/ The Living God): I Am! Matt 14:27; Mark 6:50; 14:62; John 6:20; 8:24,58; 13:19; 18:5f,8 (Note: Some versions have “It is I” in these verses, but the literal phrase is “I Am!”) Other: John 5:26; 1Cor 15:45.

    16) Immutable/ Faithful/ Worthy of Trust: Phil 2:24; 1Thes 5:24; 2Thes 3:3; 2Tim 2:13; Heb 1:8-12; 2:17; 3:2; 10:23; 13:8; Rev 3:14,17; 19:11.

    17) Perfect/ Incomparable/ Awesome/ Great: Judg 13:6; Luke 13:32; John 6:68; Heb 2:10; 5:9; 12:2; 2Pet 1:16 (cp. Luke 9:43).

    18) Good/ Goodness: John 7:12; 10:32; Acts 10:38; Eph 2:7.

    19) Holy: Josh 5:13-15 (cp, Exod 3:5); Isa 53:9; Matt 26:59f; Luke 5:8; John 8:46; 2Cor 5:21; Heb 4:15; 7:26; Rev 1:17.

    20) Righteous and Just: Zech 9:9; Matt 12:20; 27:19,24; Luke 18:8; 23:47; John 5:20; 7:18; Acts 3:14; 22:14; 1Cor 1:30; 1Tim 3:16; 2Tim 4:8; Heb 1:9; 1Pet 3:18; 2Pet 1:1; 1John 1:9; 2:29; 19:11.

    21) Truth: Matt 22:16; Mark 12:14,32; John 1:14,17; 7:18; 8:40,45f; 14:6; 18:37; 2Cor 11:10; Eph 4:21; 1John 5:20; Rev 3:7,14; 19:11.

    22) Light: Matt 4:16; 17:2; 24:27; Luke 1:78f; 2:32; 17:24; John 1:4,9; 3:19-21; 8:12; 9:5; 12:35f,46; Acts 9:3f; 22:6-11; 26:12-18; Eph 5:14; Rev 21:23.

    23) Judge: Ps 2:7-9; Matt 16:27; 25:31-46 [cp. Ezek 34:17]; John 5:22-27; Acts 10:42; 17:31; Rom 2:16; 1Cor 4:5; 2Cor 5:10f; Eph 6:8; 2Tim 4:1,8; Jam 5:9; 1Pet 4:5; Rev 2:23; 19:11.

    24) Fire: Matt 3:10-12; Luke 3:16f; 2Thes 1:7f; Rev 1:14 (cp. Dan 7:9); 19:12.

    25) Wrath: Ps 2:12; Rev 6:15-17; 19:15.

    26) Grace, Mercy, Compassion, and Love: Matt 9:36; 14:14; 15:32; 20:28,34; Mark 1:41; 6:34; 8:2; Luke 7:13; John 1:14,17; 13:1; 15:9-13; Acts 15:11; Rom 5:21; 8:35; 16:20; 1Cor 16:23; 2Cor 5:14; 13:14; Gal 6:18; Eph 3:19; Phil 4:23; 1Thes 5:28; 2Thes 3:18; 1Tim 1:2; 2Tim 1:2,18; Tit 1:4; Phlm 1:25; 2John 1:3; Jude 1:21; Rev 22:21.

    27) Forgives Sin: Mark 2:5-11; Luke 7:47-50; Col 3:13; Jam 5:15.

    28) Redeems/ Redeemer: Rom 3:24; 1Cor 1:30 Gal 3:13; 4:4f; Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; Titus 2:14; Heb 9:12-15; 1Pet 1:18f; Rev 5:9; 14:3f.

    29) Saves/ Savior: Zech 9:9; Matt 1:21; 18:11; Luke 2:11; 9:56; 19:10; John 3:17; 4:42; 10:9; 5:34; 12:47; Acts 2:47; 4:12; 5:31; 13:23;16:30f; Rom 5:9f; 10:8-13; Eph 5:23; Phil 3:20; 1Tim 1:15; 2Tim 1:10; 2:10; 3:15; Titus 1:4; 2:13; 3:6; Heb 2:10; 7:25; 9:28; 2Pet 1:1,11; 2:20; 3:2,15; 1John 4:14; Rev 7:10; 9:28; 2Pet 1:1,11; 2:20; 3:2,15; 1John 4:14; Rev 7:10.

    30) Rock: Rom 9:33; 1Cor 10:4; 1Pet 2:7f.

    31) Shepherd: Mic 5:4; Matt 25:32; John 10:11,14-16; Heb 13:20; 1Peter 2:25; 5:4; Rev 7:16f.

    32) Father: Not applicable as Jesus is the Son, not the Father.

    33) Glorious/ Wonderful: Judg 13:18; Isa 4:2; 9:6; 11:10; Matt 21:15; 25:31; Luke 13:17; Titus 2:13.

    34) Hears and Answers Prayer: John 14:13f; Acts 7:59f; 2Cor 12:8f; 1John 5:13-15; Rev 5:8 (cp. 8:4).

    35) Worthy of Worship and All Praise: Josh 5:13f; Matt 14:33; 21:9,16f; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; Phil 2:10f; 2Tim 4:18; Heb 1:6; 2Peter 3:18; Rev 5:8-14. While it is true that some of these attributes could be said about people or angels, no person or angel possesses almost all of them as Jesus Christ does. Thus putting all of them together is strong proof Jesus is fully God.

    C) Additional Attributes of Deity:
    Controls the weather: Matt 14:30-33; Mark 4:36-41; (cp. Job 38:25-38; Ps 135:7).
    Gives commandments: Matt 5:27f,31-48 (cp. Exod 20:1-17).
    Fills the hungry soul: John 6:48-51 (cp. Ps 107:9).
    Receives sacred service (Gr., latreuo): Rev 22:3 (cp. Matt 4:10).

    D) Theophanies = Christophanies:
    The NT teaches no on can see God (John 1:18; 6:46). But people did see the Lord in the OT (e.g., Isa 6:1-8). Appearances of the Lord in the OT are actually appearances of God the Son (John 12:37,41). It is God the Father that people cannot see (1Tim 6:16).

    E) The Angel of the Lord and the Lord:
    In the OT, the Angel of the Lord is both distinct from the Lord and identified with Him. The appearances of the Angel of the Lord are appearances of the pre-incarnate Christ.

    Distinct subsistences (“persons”): 2Sam 24:16f; 1Chr 21:15f,27; Zech 1:12. Same Person: Gen 22:1f,11f,15f; Gen 28:10-22 (cp. 31:11-13); 48:15f (Note: “bless” is singular). Exod 3:2,4 Exod 13:21; 14:19. Exod 20:1f; Deut 1:6-8; Judg 2:1-4; Judg 2:1-4; Judg 6:11-21 (cp. vv.11f with v.14) Judg 13:21f. Hosea 12:3-5.

    F) God and the Lamb: In the Revelation, God and the Lamb are distinct and from each other yet identified with each other. Rev 7:10,17; 21:22f; 22:1,3 (cp. Isa 60:19f).

    G) OT Passages in NT:
    Passages in the OT referring to God are quoted or alluded to in the NT as referring to the Son. Ps 8:2 / Matt 21:16. Ps 102:25-27 / Heb 1:10-12. Ps 130:8 / Matt 1:21. Isa 26:19; 60:1 / Eph 5:14. Isa 40:3/ Matt 3:3 Isa 43:10 / Acts 1:8. Isa 45:23 / Phil 2:10. Jer 2:13; 17:13 / John 4:13f; 7:37. Jer 9:24 / 2Cor 10:17f. Jer 17:10 / Rev 2:23. Joel 2:32 / Rom 10:13. Mal 3:1 / Mark 1:2.

    4. The Holy Spirit is a Person capable of thought, will, and interaction with others.

    A) Has a mind and a will. Rom 8:27; 1Cor 12:11.

    B) Acts 13:1-5: Speaks, commands, and calls: verse 2. Refers to Himself with personal pronouns: “to Me” and “I” - verse 2. Sends out missionaries: verse 4.

    C) Elsewhere in the Book of Acts:
    Inspires Scripture: Acts 1:16.
    Is lied to: Acts 5:3.
    Bears witness: Acts 5:32.
    Instructs: Acts 8:29.
    Comforts: Acts 9:31.
    Tells and sends: Acts 10:19f; 11:12.
    Knows what is good: Acts 15:28.
    Forbids: Acts 16:6f.
    Testifies: Acts 20:23.
    Appoints church officers: Acts 20:28.
    Prophesies: Acts 28:25.

    D) Elsewhere in the Bible:
    Hovers: Gen 1:2 (cp. Deut 32:11).
    Speaks: 2Sam 23:2; Ezek 2:2-3:14,24ff; 11:5-12; John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 21:11; 28:25; 1Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7; Rev 2:7,11,17,29; 3:1,6,13,22; 14:13; 22:17.
    Gives plans: 1Chr 28:11f.
    Instructs: Neh 9:20.
    Sends: Isa 48:16; Ezek 2:2f.
    Grieves: Isa 63:10; Eph 4:30.
    Inspires Scripture: Zech 7:12; 2Pet 1:21.
    Leads: Matt 4:1; Mark 1:12; Luke 4:1; Rom 8:14.
    Speaks for believers: Matt 10:19f.
    Can be blasphemed: Matt 12:31f; Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10.
    Teaches: Luke 12:12; John 14:26.
    Witnesses: John 15:26; Heb 10:15-17; Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1John 5:6.
    Assures, leads, bears witness, and enables: Rom 8:14-17.
    Helps and makes intercession: Rom 8:26f (cp. v.34; 1Tim 2:5).
    Loves: Rom 15:30.
    Searches: 1Cor 2:10f.
    Justifies: 1Cor 6:11.
    Gives gifts: 1Cor 12:8-11; Heb 2:4.
    Fellowships: 2Cor 13:14; Phil 2:1.
    Reveals: Eph 3:5.
    Instructs: 1Tim 4:1; Heb 9:8.
    Is insulted: Heb 10:29.
    Commands: Rev 22:17.

    E) John 14:16: The Spirit is “another Counselor” (allos parakletos) besides Jesus (1John 2:1; the Greek word is also parakletos). Note also, allos indicates another of the same kind. It is distinct from heteros, which indicators another of a different kind (e.g., Gal 1:6f, “different” in v. 6 is heteros, “another” in v. 7 is allos). Since Jesus is a Person, the Holy Spirit must be of the same kind and thus a Person also.

    5. The Holy Spirit is God:

    A) Equated with God: Exod 29:45f; Haggai 2:5. 2Sam 23:2f Acts 5:3,4. Rom 5:5; 2Thes 3:5. 1Cor 12:6,11,18. 2Cor 3:17f.

    B) Possesses the Attributes of God:

    1) Personal: See previous section.

    2) Creator: Gen 1:2b; Job 26:13; Ps 104:30.

    3) Live Giver: Gen 2:7; Job 27:3; 33:4; Rom 8:2,11; 1Pet 3:18.

    4) Spirit/ Invisible: Self-evident.

    5) Omnipresent: Numb 11:25f; Ps 139:7-10; Joel 2:28f; John 3:34; Acts 4:31; 5:32; 8:15-17; 10:44; 19:6; Rom 5:5; 8:9; 1Cor 3:16; 6:19; Gal 4:6; 2Tim 1:14.

    6) Omniscient: Isa 43:10; 1Cor 2:10f.

    7) Knows the Future: Luke 2:26; John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 11:28; 20:22f; 21:11,33; 1Tim 4:1; 1Pet 1:11.

    8) Omnipotent: Luke 1:35-37; Rom 15:19.

    9) Eternal: Heb 9:14.

    10) Good/ Goodness: Neh 9:20; Ps 143:10.

    11) Holy: “Holy Spirit” appears 95 times. See also Rom 1:4.

    12) Truth: John 14:17; 15:26; 16:13; 1John 5:6.

    13) Fire: Acts 2:3f; Rev 4:5.

    14) Grace, Mercy, Compassion, and Love: Zech 12:10; Heb 10:29.

    15) Glorious/ Wonderful: 2Cor 3:8; 1Peter 4:14.

    16) Hears and Answers Prayer: Rom 8:26f; Eph 6:18; Jude 1:20. The number of attributes of God ascribed to the Spirit is not as all-encompassing as for the Son, but number is still significant and sufficient to establish His deity.

    C) Additional Attributes of God:
    Calls into ministry: Acts 13:2; 20:28.
    Inspires Scripture: Zech 7:12; 2Pet 1:20f; Rev 2:7.
    Gives eternal life: John 3:3-8; Titus 3:5.

    D) The Temple of God = The Temple of the Holy Spirit:
    The bodies of Christians are described as being the temple of God and as being the temple of the Holy Spirit since we are filled with the Holy Spirit, who is God. 1Cor 3:16; 6:19; 2Cor 6:16; Eph 3:19; 5:18.

    E) The Spirit's Words are Equated with God's Words: Lev 16:1-34 / Heb 9:7f. Isa 6:9f / Acts 28:25-27. Jer 31:33f / Heb 10:15f.

    6. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct from each other:

    A) In the OT:
    Gen 1:1-3,26f; 11:7; 19:24; Neh 9:20; Ps 2:1-9; Prov 30:4; Isa 6:8; 48:16; 63:11; Dan 7:13f; Zech 2:8-3:2.

    B) In the Gospels:
    Matt 3:16; 4:1,6; 11:25-27; 12:32f; 14:23; 16:16f; 17:5; 22:44; 26:39,42; 27:46; 28:18f; Mark 1:1,8; 12:36; 13:32; 15:34; 16:19; Luke 4:18; 6:12; 11:13; 20:42f; 23:34,46; John 1:1f; 3:16-18,34-36; 5:19-23,26f,30f,36-38,43-45; 6:27,37-46; 8:17f; 11:41f: 13:1; 14:6,16f,23-31; 15:26; 16:13-16,25-28,32; 17:1-28; 20:17,21f.

    C) In the Book of Acts:
    2:22-36; 3:13-15,19f,26; 4:24-30; 7:55f; 10:34-42; 13:33-37; 15:8; 17:30f; 20:21.

    D) In the Pauline Epistles:
    Rom 1:1-9; 1Cor 1:1-9; 2:10f; 15:23-28; 2Cor 1:1-3; 2:14f; 3:3-6; 5:18-21; 13:14; Gal 1:1-5; 4:4-6; Eph 1:2-23; 2:1-10,18; 3:14-21; 4:4-6; 5:1f; 6:23; Phil 1:2,11; 2:5-11; Col 1:2f,19f; 2:2; 3:1; 1Thes 1:1,3; 4:8; 5:9; 2Thes 1:2; 2:13-17; 1Tim 1:1f; 2Tim 1:1f; 4:1; Tit 1:4; Phlm 1:3.

    E) In the General Epistles and The Revelation:
    Heb 1:1-9,13; 2:9,17; 5:5-10; 7:25; 9:14,24; 10:5-13; 12:2; 13:20f; Jam 1:1; 1Pet 1:1-3,17-21; 2:4-6; 3:18,22; 5:10; 1John 1:3,7; 2:1; 4:7-10; 5:6,11; 2John 1:3,9; Jude 1:1,20f; Rev 1:1-6; 5:9f,13; 21:22f; 22:1,17.


    Concluding thoughts and discussion:

    Two references that are edifying reading:

    1. Gerald Bray's http://www.amazon.com/Doctrine-God-C.../dp/0830815317 The Doctrine of God

    2. Robert Letham's http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Trinity-S.../dp/0875520006 The Holy Trinity


    All the persons of the trinity are autotheos (God himself) and have their essence a se ipso (from he himself). That is, the second person of the Trinity is God by virtue of his own life; he does not receive that life from the Father. He only receives his Son-ness from the Father. Same with the Spirit. The Spirit is God a se ipso, but He is the Spirit from the Father and the Son. So, the three are all three God, and that on their own. The generation and procession have to do with the personal relations. There is a kind of order, but it is economic, not ontological. That's why we confess them the same in power and glory.

    The only real apologetic is one that ends with the Christian worldview, which necessarily includes the Trinitarian view. To deny the Trinity is to deny the personness of God.

    The Trinity is perhaps the singularly unique aspect of Christianity, and we find that the rivals of Christianity deny or ignore the Trinity. And even within Christianity, when we examine the heresies, the doctrine of the Trinity is usually the first thing denied. Denying the Trinity causes the definition of God to be diluted and His marks of personality to be erased. The Gnostics, Arians, Neoplatonists all worshipped a non-Trinitarian God—a god of “pure oneness”, without plurality of any kind. Of course, we ask, “A oneness of what?” “A unity of what?” Nothing could be said to answer these questions. To say anything in this “oneness” view suggests division, plurality, certainly at least between subject and predicate. Indeed, to say “God is x” creates a plurality between God and x. Hence, speaking of God at all is meaningless to these non-Trinitarian views, and God’s nature becomes “wholly other”—indescribable in human language since the human mind could not even grasp this blank oneness.

    That said, the Unitarians of old would try to speak of God as the perfect unity of those things separated in creation. Yet, if God is defined simply in terms of creation, then God is relative to creation. These forms of anti-Trinitarianism lead to these effects—a “wholly other” God, rather than the Biblical sense of a transcendent God. It also leads to a God who is relative to His creation, rather than the Sovereign Lord. We end up with this blank “One” of the Moonbeam theology of New Agers, versus the absolute personality of the Scriptures. The Creator-creation distinction becomes a matter of degree rather than a difference of being. One need only look at Islam’s predestination doctrines to see the impersonal determinism versus the wise and good planning of the Scriptural God Almighty. Furthermore, within Islam, we find a god who can arbitrarily change his very nature, versus the character of the ever-abiding, dependably personal God of Scripture.

    Unlike these non-Christian or Christian heresies, the Scripture has a very clear answer to the “A unity of what?” question—one unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. When we examine Scripture we cannot help but find that when Scripture is touting the unity of God, it cannot resist the naming of more than one person of the Trinity (see, 1 Cor. 8:4ff; Ephesians 4:4-6; John 17:3; Matthew 28:19ff). Now if you were a “oneness” proponent you would think that the authors of such passages would have been more careful to avoid confusing matters alluding to the Trinity in these contexts, no? Yet the penman of Scripture clearly thought otherwise. Why? Because the Trinity confirmed, rather than compromised, the unity of God. Indeed, God’s “oneness”, God’s unity, is precisely is a unity of three persons.

    So what, then? Only with the Trinitarian worldview, where God is three and one, can God be described in personal terms without God being made relative to the world. Consider, 1 John 4:8, “…God is love.” What does that mean? Well, the non-Trinitarians will answer “love of the world”. An immediate problem arises. Apparently the divine attribute of Love depends on the existence of the world. Since the attributes of God and the essence of God are co-inherent, such a response is claiming that God Himself depends upon the world. Here we see the slippery slope to a “wholly revealed” God. All right, then should we not say that “love” is metaphorically related to something mysterious? Then here we see the slippery slope to a “wholly other” God. Thus we encounter the heresies of Gnosticism, Neoplatonism, and Arianism. For if God is simply “One”, He is either “wholly other” or God is relative to the world—or somehow is both.

    The Trinitarian God is the only God that an apologetic should be focused upon. And without this God there is no truth, rationality, etc. (meaning), therefore God exists. The only legitimate theistic proof is reduced to the proof from the possibility of predication. That is, God exists, because without God it is impossible to reason, to think, or even attach a predicate to a subject (predication). Any proof that results in making God less than something He is is no proof at all. We should not use apologetics that simply attempt to prove that God is an intelligent designer, a moral legislator, or a first cause. The only proof is one that demonstrates the God of Scripture—transcendental, immanent, absolute personality, sovereign, Trinitarian.

    We should never mount an apologetic that suggests we can reason, predicate, examine probabilities, apart from God. The Scripture is clear that there is no neutral ground upon which the believer and the non-believer may stand, given the Scripture’s clear teachings on the depravity of man.

    When considering the divinity of Christ, there are many heresies related to Trinitarian doctrine. These many heresies related to the Godhead were denounced by the http://www.reformed.org/documents/chalcedon.html Chalcedonian Definition with respect to the Incarnation, and there is not a single orthodox church, Catholic or Protestant that denies the Chalcedonian Definition. The many heresies so denied by the Chalcedonian Definition can be seen by examining what the Incarnation was not. It was not...

    1. a denial that Christ was truly God (Ebionites, Elkasites, Arians);
    2. a dissimilar or different substance (anomoios) with the Father (semi-Arianism);
    3. a denial that Christ had a genuine human soul (Apollinarians);
    4. a denial of a distinct person in the Trinity (Dynamic Monarchianism);
    5. God acting merely in the forms of the Son and Spirit (Modalistic Monarchianism/Sabellianism/United Pentecostal Church);
    6. a mixture or change when the two natures were united (Eutychianism/Monophysitism);
    7. two distinct persons (Nestorianism);
    8. a denial of the true humanity of Christ (docetism);
    9. that God the Son laid aside all or some of His divine attributes (kenoticism);
    10. that there was a communication of the attributes between the divine and human natures (Lutheranism, with respect to the Lord's Supper); and
    11. that Jesus existed independently as a human before God entered His body (Adoptionism).

    Summarizing, the Bible teaches God is in some way “three” and in some way “one.” So God is a “tri-unity” or more simply “Trinity.” The doctrine of the Trinity explains God’s three-in-oneness without ending up in a logical contradiction. A simple statement, but not perfectly accurate, of this doctrine is, “God is three Persons in one essence.” One what, three whos. The term “person” refers to a self-conscious or rational subsistence capable of thought, will (volition), and interaction with others; an actual self or individual personality (adapted from Erickson, p.127, Webster’s, American).

    A divine person is not the same thing as a human individual. This is however, the closest analogy we have in our finite experience. Whenever we start to conceive of God, we must resort to the via negativa. So, while we can think of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as distinct modes of subsistence or as distinct persons, we must deny the separateness these distinct modes of subsistence will always imply when it comes to the human analogy. We must think of God as one in essence, but we must deny that this unity precludes a diversity of modes of subsistence, again as it would with the human analogy. When speaking of the mind, like will, both are attributes of the nature and are not personal distinctions. God is of one will, and one mind. Each person of the Godhead, if you will, has access to, use of, the entire extend of the mind. Yet, in the ultimate sense, we cannot make these separations for God does not have a mind or a will--God is His mind and His will.

    The term essence means, “The basic, real, and invariable nature of a thing; substance” (Webster’s). “The intrinsic or indispensable properties that serve to characterize or identify something… The inherent, unchanging nature of a thing or class of things” (American). So the terms “person” and “essence” are not identical; as such, there is no logical contradiction in the explanation of the doctrine of the Trinity of God being three Persons in one essence.

    As was stated at the beginning of this document, to substantiate the doctrine of the Trinity, six and only six points need to be demonstrated from Scripture:

    1. There is only one true God.
    2. The Father is God.
    3. The Son is God.
    4. The Holy Spirit is a Person (see discussion of “person” above).
    5. The Holy Spirit is God.
    6. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct from each other.

    For anyone who takes the time to prayerfully study what has been presented, the above conclusively meets the burden of demonstrating the Biblical Trinitarian view of God.

    The above has been adapted with a tip of the hat to the following sources: Bray, Letham, Turretin, Shedd, Erickson, Reymond, Bavinck, Berkhof, Zeolla, Samples, Van Til


    AMR
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    The Lord Jesus Christ refers to himself 80 times, in Matthew-John, as "the Son of man."

    Daniel 7 KJV
    13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

    =divine authority...rightful heir to the divine throne....He will rule forever.... Nations will worship Him...His kingdom will be unstoppable....

    Mark 14 KJV
    60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? 61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses? 64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.


    The Lord Jesus Christ, to the Jewish "leadership." Yeah, that's right. I’m the Messiah. I’m the Son of God. You're looking at Him.I'm also the Son of man. You got that?And you’ll see me seated at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.Listen up....There’s going to be another trial one day. And you won’t be judging me. You know that guy in Daniel’s vision? That’s me. My title of "Son of Man," is me-the perfect mix of humanity, and divinity.Accept it. You'll have no choice, eventually.

    EOT. RIP. QED.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mixed_Brown View Post
    As a trinitrian or non-trinitarian, are there other scriptures you feel shouldn't be used?
    If you do feel they should still be used, why?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Done and done:
    [LIST]

    AMR
    Since you did not mention why that list of verses should be used, can we assume that this was a list of scriptures you feel shouldn't be used?
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Matt 5:21-22
    21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
    22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
    KJV
    I picked apart this bible corrector/agnostic/mystic's opinion, of:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    You should go back to Jesus' words, and see what he teaches regarding calling other people names.

    ....with "Jesus' words," chapter, verse, in which to soak his Christ rejecting "brain," and what do we get from him? Spamming NADA, as usual.


    You viper, hypocrite, fool.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    The Father/Son relationship that Jesus and HIS Father have is not one of CREATOR and CREATED.... John 1:1, 1:14
    Christ rejector's: He claimed He was the Son of God, not God!!!!!!!!!!!


    Does God the Father have a wife?


    Morons...each and every one of these con artists.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Sure you were. You quoted verbatim what the verse says. Perhaps not intentionally, but you did quote it.
    I will readily agree I came closer to quoting it that you did, I did included every word of the verse.
    Since I added the numbers, since you didn't seem to grasp the grammar of the verse, I wouldn't call my statement a quote.

    Who's the one trying to obfuscate again?

    Quote Originally Posted by JR


    [that] [they] [might know] [You], [the] [only] [true] [God]
    [conjunction] [pronoun] [verb] [pronoun], [definite article] [adjective] [adjective] [Proper noun]

    The two adjectives are describing God, not "You" in that verse.
    No, the phrase "the only true God" is modifying/describing "YOU" which we all know is the Father.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    No, the phrase "the only true God" is modifying/describing "YOU" which we all know is the Father.
    That's what I said, you moron.

    Keep reading, and stop snipping my posts, so that you stop making straw man arguments.

    And that's not the ONLY thing I said, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman
    No, the phrase "the only true God" is modifying/describing "YOU" which we all know is the Father.
    That's what I said ...
    Then you and I agree, the only true God is the Father?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Then you and I agree, the only true God is the Father?


    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    We Trinitarians believe there is only one God. He is Father, Son, Holy Spirit, three Persons.

    The Father is the only true God.
    The Son is the only true God.
    The Holy Spirit is the only true God.
    That was something that you snipped out of your reply to that post.

    You would have known that earlier had you actually read my post in full.

    Dartman, please, from now on, read my post in full before you hit the "reply with quote" button, or at the very least, stop snipping parts of my responses to you when you quote my posts, that way you don't miss anything that I say.

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