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Thread: Trinity Proof Scriptures

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    ONLY the Father is God.
    A Father without a child is not a Father.

    Please show us "God the Father" in the old testament.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    A Father without a child is not a Father.
    Correct;
    Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by RD
    Please show us "God the Father" in the old testament.
    Sure.

    Isa 64:8 But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.


    1 Chron 29:10-11 Wherefore David blessed Jehovah before all the assembly; and David said, Blessed be thou, O Jehovah, the God of Israel our father, for ever and ever. 11 Thine, O Jehovah, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heavens and in the earth (is thine); thine is the kingdom, O Jehovah, and thou art exalted as head above all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Coincidences?

    In the Bible?
    So, Artaxerxes being called "king of kings" ... coincidence or he is God?
    Nebuchadnezzar being called "king of kings" ... coincidence or he is God?

    You are desperately defending a ludicrous, unscriptural theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    So, Artaxerxes being called "king of kings" ... coincidence or he is God?
    Nebuchadnezzar being called "king of kings" ... coincidence or he is God?

    You are desperately defending a ludicrous, unscriptural theory.
    You are so ignorant you can't even ask the right questions.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Correct;
    Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

    Sure.

    Isa 64:8 But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.


    1 Chron 29:10-11 Wherefore David blessed Jehovah before all the assembly; and David said, Blessed be thou, O Jehovah, the God of Israel our father, for ever and ever. 11 Thine, O Jehovah, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heavens and in the earth (is thine); thine is the kingdom, O Jehovah, and thou art exalted as head above all.
    So you cannot tell the difference between the first created man (from the dust of the ground, Gen 2:7) and the WORD (Who was God, John 1:1) that was made flesh (John 1:14)? Got it.

    In what SENSE is "our Father" used in Isaiah? "THOU ARE OUR POTTER"... again referring to CREATED beings, unlike the WORD, Who was God, made flesh

    Even the unbelieving Jews of Jesus' day understood Jesus' claim about HIS Father:

    Joh 5:17-18 KJV But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. (18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    Note carefully that Jesus does not say OUR Father,... but MY Father.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Awesome! I respect that level of honesty
    I think you'll find that I'm a very honest person.

    ..... but not all your trinitarian friends are that honest ..... which was the point of the OP.
    And so you're going to assume that because of a few, all of them are not honest?

    Hasty generalization, much?

    Sorry, "of course there aren't" is completely unacceptable for a Doctrine that is the most important in ALL the Gospel.
    This is a non-sequitur. Also an argument from silence.

    Using this logic, you could argue that we shouldn't call the Bible the "Holy Bible" because the phrase isn't found in scripture.

    And, this is in STARK CONTRAST to the CLEAR, CONSISTENT message that ONLY Jehovah is God.... ONLY the Father is God.
    Misquoting the Bible doesn't make your argument valid.

    If anything, it shows you're dishonest, the opposite of what you are seeking from your opponents.

    The verse says "You, the only true God," not "only You, the true God," and not "You only, the true God."

    How can you justify the vacuum of verses
    Again, an argument from silence is a logical fallacy.

    You are asserting that because the Bible does not state explicitly that "Jesus (the Son) and the Holy Spirit are God," that they cannot be God.

    that state your premise, with the VAST quantities of Scriptures that contradict your premise??
    I haven't seen you quote one verse (that is, from inspired scripture) that I don't agree with completely.

    Sorry, that criticism goes to the trinity/oneness theories.
    Considering that I (and Musty and RD and W2G) are posting a group of scriptures that as a whole show Jesus to be God, whereas if you were to look at them individually, they don't really say very much about His deity.

    You just admitted there are NONE that explicitly state your premise!
    Yup, because the Bible is more than just explicit statements of truth to be cherry picked to make any argument a person likes.

    For example, if I wanted to, I could advocate any number of sins with just the phrase uttered by Jesus Himself: "Go and do likewise."

    Of course, that would be wicked, so...

    My point is this: looking at individual verses, even lots of individual verses at the same time, won't do you much good unless you have the context to understand what they mean as a group.

    NOW YOUR DENYING THAT THE FATHER IS GOD??????????
    Please show where I stated that the Father was not God.

    I think you'll find the opposite.

    Try not to cut out so much of my post so that you don't miss important parts that might dismantle your argument before you make it.

    ------------

    Dartman, I'd like to challenge you on something.

    Back when I was in middle school, 8th grade, I believe, I was in math class trying to understand something, and I made the argument to my teacher, if I don't understand something, how can I remember/learn/know it.

    My teacher, who was and probably still is far wiser than I am, told me that first you must have the knowledge of something, and then you can begin to understand it. I have kept this in mind since then, and if I'm being honest with you, I've seen that concept show up elsewhere as well throughout my life.

    Here is my challenge to you.

    Try to learn what the Trinity doctrine actually teaches. Try to learn the ins and outs of the position. Then, once you know what the position is, or at least have a basic grasp of what it says, at that point, try to show how the position is flawed, if you can. That's assuming you haven't accepted it as your own position, of course.

    If you don't have knowledge of a concept, how could you ever hope to show how it's wrong?

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Isaiah 44
    6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel,and his redeemer the Lord of hosts;I am the first, and I am the last;and beside me there is no God.

    Revelation 1 KJV
    7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    Revelation 22 KJV
    12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


    Christ rejectors: It really does not mean that, you see....


    1 Samuel 2 KJV
    6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive:he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

    John 2 KJV
    19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.




    John 11 KJV
    25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

    John 10 KJV
    17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


    Christ rejectors: Well, that does not really mean that He is God, you see, well, uh, urr, ....he is just a servant, you see, uh, urr...
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    You are so ignorant you can't even ask the right questions.
    Ah, the highly persuasive "personal attack", employed when you REALLY don't want to answer the questions.

    You should go back to Jesus' words, and see what he teaches regarding calling other people names.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mixed_Brown View Post
    As a trinitrian or non-trinitarian, are there other scriptures you feel shouldn't be used?
    If you do feel they should still be used, why?
    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    link Jesus is God . no thus saith the lord.
    Christís Self-focus:

    [LIST]
    Quote Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
    Which one says Jesus is God?

    They do not seem to fit the thread purpose. They do not prove or disprove the trinity.
    Maybe it is a list of scriptures that should not be used?
    Learn to read what is written.

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    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman
    .... but not all your trinitarian friends are that honest ..... which was the point of the OP.
    And so you're going to assume that because of a few, all of them are not honest?
    I was discussing the OP, which I didn't write.. so this isn't about ANY assumptions I have made.

    Hasty generalization, much?
    Quote Originally Posted by JR
    This is a non-sequitur. Also an argument from silence.

    Using this logic, you could argue that we shouldn't call the Bible the "Holy Bible" because the phrase isn't found in scripture.
    It isn't required for salvation to use the title "Holy Bible", your point is the true non sequitur.
    Quote Originally Posted by JR
    Misquoting the Bible doesn't make your argument valid.
    I wasn't quoting, any more than you were with your warped comments.

    Which shows you're attempting to obfuscate.
    Quote Originally Posted by JR
    The verse says "You, the only true God," not "only You, the true God," and not "You only, the true God."
    Those mean precisely the same thing.
    Jesus praying to his Father, and saying;
    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


    is CLEARLY discussing two phrases, as I outlined.


    Gotta head into town, I plan to address the rest later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mixed_Brown View Post
    I am basically asking trinitarians and non trinitarians which scriptures they think shouldn't be used in defense of the trinity.
    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    In other words, you're asking trinitarians, who use the entire Bible, which states that He is triune, to state which verses say that He is not?
    It looks like he is also asking non-trinitarians, who use the entire Bible, which never states that God is triune, to state which of the so-called trinitarian verses have been debunked.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Try to learn what the Trinity doctrine actually teaches.
    Wouldn't that be refreshing?.... instead of all of the vicious straw-man beatings that we commonly see.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Ah, the highly persuasive "personal attack", employed when you REALLY don't want to answer the questions.

    You should go back to Jesus' words, and see what he teaches regarding calling other people names.

    Vs.


    Matthew 23 KJV
    13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

    29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

    Matthew 12 KJV
    39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

    John 6 KJV
    70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?


    Contrasts.
    Saint John W

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    Trinitarian: The Bible says the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit make up the Trinity.

    Non-Trinitarian: Where?

    Trinitarian: Everywhere. It is in every verse of the Bible.

    Non-Trinitarian: Can you show me any verse that says that?

    Trinitarian: Yes. Does the Bible refer to three distinct persons?

    Non-Trinitarian: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Mark 12:26)? Noah, Daniel, and Job (Ezekiel 14:14,20)?

    Trinitarian: No, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19). These three are one (1 John 5:7).

    Non-Trinitarian: The three agree in one (1 John 5:8).

    Trinitarian: The three are one! The three are one being! The Bible says so.

    Non-Trinitarian: It doesn't look like it to me. If believing in the Trinity is so important, wouldn't it be easier to find the verses that teach the Trinity?

    Trinitarian: Prove that the God is not a Trinity.

    Non-Trinitarian: The concept of the Trinity violates every rule of grammar and logic.

    Trinitarian: Prove it.

    Non-Trinitarian: 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. "Sent His Son" does not mean "went himself."

    Trinitarian: No, no no. Prove that the God is not a Trinity.

    Non-Trinitarian: You can't prove a negative.

    Trinitarian: The Bible proves that the God IS a Trinity!

    Non-Trinitarian: I have read through the entire Bible many times and it never says anything about God being a Trinity.

    Trinitarian: The Trinity is in every verse of the Bible. The Trinity created the heaven and the earth.

    Non-Trinitarian: The Trinity is not in the Bible anywhere. The entire concept of the Trinity seems to have come from nothing.

    Trinitarian: "Come from nothing" is ex nihilo, and only God can create ex nihilo, therefore the concept of the Trinity was created by God.

    Non-Trinitarian: I suppose that is as close to proving the Trinity as you will ever get.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Greetings JudgeRightly,
    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    The reason it doesn't convince anyone (especially you) is that they're too focused on the details, and not getting the big picture of what scripture says about Him.
    The above "list of prooftexts" is not that at all. It's a collection of scripture that, when taken as a whole, together, in context of the others, shows Jesus to be God, not just a man.
    But none of us trinitarians are surprised that you cannot see the forest for the trees.
    What the List does reveal is that Jesus is the Son of God and that Jesus is the central focus in God’s purpose with the earth both now and in the future Kingdom that is soon to be established upon the earth. Also his crucifixion, death and resurrection is the means of salvation. So the List is helpful in itself, but does not in any way prove the Trinity. Yes, Jesus is a man, the Son of God. The verse that I suggested John 8:28 states that Jesus is “the Son of Man” and that he is totally dependent on God, His Father. He is not claiming in this verse to be an independent Deity, as suggested by Trinitarians. I also would be interested if you support 1 John 5:7 KJV, because in another active thread it was used, and when I suggested that the forum member consider the Trinitarian commentary Barnes Notes, available on Bible Hub, all I received was abuse. Do you believe that 1 John 5:7 KJV is valid? My experience with you in the past is that you have endorsed some very marginal Trinitarian posts.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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