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Thread: Trinity Proof Scriptures

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    Trinity Proof Scriptures

    To start with I'll give a little background

    I am not a trinitarian, so don't believe Jesus is YHWH.

    My reason for creating this thread isn't to debate if the trinity is true.

    What I am asking is SHOULD certain scriptures be cited as trinity proof scriptures, when they have been proved to do no such thing countless times.

    A few examples are

    KJV 1 John 5: 7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one

    This is not in any early manuscript so is obviously a later addition to the text, so shouldn't be used as a proof text.


    John 10:30 "I and the Father are one.”

    This is discussing the union between the Father and Son. This is not saying they are one in being.


    Again I am not creating this thread to debate the trinity. I am asking if scriptures like the ones cited above, (plus others) should continue to be used by trinitarians , although they clearly teach nothing at all about the trinity?

    I'm sure even a trinitarians, many of you would agree that scriptures that are taken out of context or scriptures that have been misapplied shouldn't be used to support your claim.

    As a trinitrian or non-trinitarian, are there other scriptures you feel shouldn't be used?
    If you do feel they should still be used, why?

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    Over 2000 post club way 2 go's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mixed_Brown View Post
    To start with I'll give a little background

    I am not a trinitarian, so don't believe Jesus is YHWH.
    link Jesus is God . no thus saith the lord.
    Christ’s Self-focus:



    • “Follow Me” 19x Mt. 4:19; 8:22; 10:38; 16:24; 19:21; Mk. 1:17; 2:14; 8:34; 10:21; Lk. 5:27; 9:59; 18:22; Jn. 1:43; 8:12; 10:27; 12:26; 13:36; 21:19, 22
    • Pray and act “in My name” 18x Mt. 7:22; 18:5; 18:20; [24:5]; Mk. 9:37, 39, 41; [13:6]; Lk. 9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; Jn. 14:13?14; 15:16; 16:23?24, 26; Acts 9:15
    • “the Holy Spirit” comes “in My name” Jn. 14:26
    • “for My name’s sake” leave family and property Mt. 19:29; or even be killed 5x Mt. 24:9; [Lk. 21:12, 17;] Jn. 15:21; Acts 9:16
    • Believe in the “name of the… Son” and “in the Son” 3x Jn. 3:18, 36; 9:35 and “in Him [Jesus]” 4x Jn. 3:18; 6:29, 40; 8:31
    • “believe in Me” 14x Mt. 18:6; Mk. 9:42; Jn. 3:15?16, 18; 6:35, 47; 7:38; 11:25, 26; 12:44, 46; 14:1, 12; 16:8; 17:20
    • You “are sanctified by faith in Me” Acts 26:18
    • Live “in Me” Jn. 11:26
    • “come after Me” Mk. 8:34; Lk. 14:27
    • Abide “in Me” Jn. 15:2, 4:5, 7 “abide in Me” or else Jn. 15:6 “abide in My love” Jn. 15:9?10
    • “where two or three are gathered” Jesus is “there in the midst of them” Mt. 18:20
    • So too: “I [Jesus, will abide] in you” Jn. 15:4?5
    • “know that I am He” Jn. 8:28 or “if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins” Jn. 8:24
    • Do things “for My sake” Mt. 10:22, 39; even lose your life “for My sake” 4x Mt. 16:25; Mk. 8:35; 10:29; Lk. 6:22
    • “I never knew you, depart from Me” Mt. 7:23
    • “I am willing; be cleansed” Mt. 8:3; Mk.. 1:41
    • ”confess Me” Mt. 10:32; Lk. 12:8
    • Do not deny “Me” 7x Mt. 10:33; 26:34; Mk. 14:30, 72; Lk. 12:9; 22:34; Jn. 13:38
    • Do not be “ashamed of Me” Mk. 8:38; Lk. 9:26 nor "My words"
    • “love Me” 5x Jn. 14:15, 21, 23?24, 28
    • Do not reject “Me” Lk. 10:16; Jn. 12:48
    • “He who is not with Me is against Me” Lk. 11:23
    • Love Me “more than” your family members Mt. 10:37; [Lk. 14:26]
    • “I… have loved you” Jn. 15:9, 12
    • Be “worthy of Me” Mt. 10:37?38
    • “Come to Me” 5x Mt. 11:28; Lk. 6:47; Jn. 5:40; 6:35; 7:37
    • “I will give you rest” Mt. 11:28
    • “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light” Mt. 11:30
    • I am “greater than the temple” “than Jonah” “than Solomon” Mt. 12:6, 41?42
    • I am “Lord even of the Sabbath” Mt. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5 [Lord of God's Ten Commandments]
    • Thus He says keep “My commandments” 4x Jn. 14:15, 21; 15:10, 12
    • “You are My friends if you do whatever I command you” Jn. 15:14
    • “keep My word” Jn. 14:23?24
    • “He who is not with Me is against Me” Mt. 12:30
    • The angels are “His angels” Mt. 13:41; 16:27 and He commands “His angels” Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
    • The kingdom is “His kingdom” Mt. 13:41 and He calls it “My kingdom” Lk. 22:30
    • Jesus called it “My church” Mt. 16:18 and believers are “My sheep” Jn. 10:14, 27 and they are “His elect” Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
    • Paul is a “vessel of Mine to bear My name” Acts 9:15
    • “all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine” Jn. 17:10
    • “My peace I give” Jn. 14:27 ”in Me you may have peace” Jn. 16:33
    • “My joy” should fill you Jn. 15:11
    • “Who do men say that I am?” Mt. 16:13; Mk. 8:27 “who do you say that I am?” Mt. 16:15
    • Receive “Me” Mt. 18:5; Mk. 9:37; Lk. 9:48
    • Heaven and earth will pass away but “My words” will never Mt. [5:18] 24:35; Mk. 13:31; Lk. 21:33
    • Tell others about Jesus Mk. 5:19
    • “you belong to Christ” Mk. 9:41
    • Hear “My sayings” and do them Lk. 6:47
    • Jesus has “His own glory” Lk. 9:26; [Jn. 2:11; 16:14] The Son is “glorified” 8x Jn. 11:4; 12:23; 13:31?32; [17:1, 5, 10 24]
    • “He who hears you hears Me” Lk. 10:16
    • Jesus expects praise, from stones if necessary 1x Lk. 19:37?40
    • Return “to Me” Lk. 22:32
    • Be “My disciple” Lk. 14:27; Jn. 8:31; 15:8 Forsake all to “be My disciple” Lk. 14:33 ”you are My disciples” Jn. 13:35
    • “I shall send… the [Holy] Spirit” Jn. 15:26; 16:7
    • The Holy Spirit “will testify of Me” Jn. 15:26
    • We read in John 5 and Luke 24 that “the Scriptures… testify of Me” Jn. 5:39; [Lk. 24:44]
    • “You [Apostles] also will bear witness [of Me] because you have been with Me” Jn. 15:27
    • Paul gives “testimony concerning Me” Acts 22:18; 23:11
    • “the Son gives life to whom He will” Jn. 5:21
    • “seek Me” Jn. 6:26
    • Serve “Me” Jn. 12:26
    • “all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father” Jn. 5:23
    • “I am the bread of life,” “of heaven,” “of God” Jn. 6: 32-33, 35, 41, [48,] 51
    • Just seeing Christ is reason enough to believe [Jn. 6:36] him” Jn. 6:56
    • Drink “My blood” and eat “My flesh” Jn. 6:53?54, 56
    • “I will raise him up at the last day” Jn. 6:40 for He is the resurrection
    • “The world… hates Me” Jn. 7:7
    • “I am the light of the world” Jn. 8:12; 9:5; 12:46
    • “I bear witness of Myself” 1x Jn. 8:13-14, 18
    • “know… Jesus Christ” for “eternal life” Jn. 17:3; [8:19; 10:10, 14]
    • “the Son makes you free” Jn. 8:36
    • “Abraham rejoiced to see My day” Jn. 8:56; “Before Abraham was, I AM” Jn. 8:58
    • Of believers, Christ said, “I know them” Jn. 10:27
    • “I give them eternal life” Jn. 10:28
    • “I am the resurrection and the life” Jn. 11:25
    • I “will draw all peoples to Myself” Jn. 12:32
    • “I will… receive you to Myself” Jn. 14:3
    • Be “Mine” Jn. 14:24
    • “I am the vine” Jn. 15:5
    • “without Me you can do nothing” Jn. 15:5
    • “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you” Jn. 15:16
    • Those who oppress Christians are “persecuting Me” Acts 9:4?5; 22:7?8; 26:14?15
      “because they have not known… Me” Jn. 16:3
    • The Spirit “will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it” Jn. 16:14
    • “All things that the Father has are Mine” Jn. 16:15
    • “the Father… loves you, because you have loved Me” Jn. 16:27
    • “If I will that he remain” Jn. 21:22
    • “I have overcome the world” Jn. 16:33
    • “I am the way” Jn. 14:6
    • “I am… the truth” Jn. 14:6
    • “I am… the life” Jn. 14:6
    • “I will… manifest Myself” Jn. 14:21

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    TOL Legend keypurr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    link Jesus is God . no thus saith the lord.
    Christ’s Self-focus:



    • “Follow Me” 19x Mt. 4:19; 8:22; 10:38; 16:24; 19:21; Mk. 1:17; 2:14; 8:34; 10:21; Lk. 5:27; 9:59; 18:22; Jn. 1:43; 8:12; 10:27; 12:26; 13:36; 21:19, 22
    • Pray and act “in My name” 18x Mt. 7:22; 18:5; 18:20; [24:5]; Mk. 9:37, 39, 41; [13:6]; Lk. 9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; Jn. 14:13?14; 15:16; 16:23?24, 26; Acts 9:15
    • “the Holy Spirit” comes “in My name” Jn. 14:26
    • “for My name’s sake” leave family and property Mt. 19:29; or even be killed 5x Mt. 24:9; [Lk. 21:12, 17;] Jn. 15:21; Acts 9:16
    • Believe in the “name of the… Son” and “in the Son” 3x Jn. 3:18, 36; 9:35 and “in Him [Jesus]” 4x Jn. 3:18; 6:29, 40; 8:31
    • “believe in Me” 14x Mt. 18:6; Mk. 9:42; Jn. 3:15?16, 18; 6:35, 47; 7:38; 11:25, 26; 12:44, 46; 14:1, 12; 16:8; 17:20
    • You “are sanctified by faith in Me” Acts 26:18
    • Live “in Me” Jn. 11:26
    • “come after Me” Mk. 8:34; Lk. 14:27
    • Abide “in Me” Jn. 15:2, 4:5, 7 “abide in Me” or else Jn. 15:6 “abide in My love” Jn. 15:9?10
    • “where two or three are gathered” Jesus is “there in the midst of them” Mt. 18:20
    • So too: “I [Jesus, will abide] in you” Jn. 15:4?5
    • “know that I am He” Jn. 8:28 or “if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins” Jn. 8:24
    • Do things “for My sake” Mt. 10:22, 39; even lose your life “for My sake” 4x Mt. 16:25; Mk. 8:35; 10:29; Lk. 6:22
    • “I never knew you, depart from Me” Mt. 7:23
    • “I am willing; be cleansed” Mt. 8:3; Mk.. 1:41
    • ”confess Me” Mt. 10:32; Lk. 12:8
    • Do not deny “Me” 7x Mt. 10:33; 26:34; Mk. 14:30, 72; Lk. 12:9; 22:34; Jn. 13:38
    • Do not be “ashamed of Me” Mk. 8:38; Lk. 9:26 nor "My words"
    • “love Me” 5x Jn. 14:15, 21, 23?24, 28
    • Do not reject “Me” Lk. 10:16; Jn. 12:48
    • “He who is not with Me is against Me” Lk. 11:23
    • Love Me “more than” your family members Mt. 10:37; [Lk. 14:26]
    • “I… have loved you” Jn. 15:9, 12
    • Be “worthy of Me” Mt. 10:37?38
    • “Come to Me” 5x Mt. 11:28; Lk. 6:47; Jn. 5:40; 6:35; 7:37
    • “I will give you rest” Mt. 11:28
    • “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light” Mt. 11:30
    • I am “greater than the temple” “than Jonah” “than Solomon” Mt. 12:6, 41?42
    • I am “Lord even of the Sabbath” Mt. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5 [Lord of God's Ten Commandments]
    • Thus He says keep “My commandments” 4x Jn. 14:15, 21; 15:10, 12
    • “You are My friends if you do whatever I command you” Jn. 15:14
    • “keep My word” Jn. 14:23?24
    • “He who is not with Me is against Me” Mt. 12:30
    • The angels are “His angels” Mt. 13:41; 16:27 and He commands “His angels” Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
    • The kingdom is “His kingdom” Mt. 13:41 and He calls it “My kingdom” Lk. 22:30
    • Jesus called it “My church” Mt. 16:18 and believers are “My sheep” Jn. 10:14, 27 and they are “His elect” Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
    • Paul is a “vessel of Mine to bear My name” Acts 9:15
    • “all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine” Jn. 17:10
    • “My peace I give” Jn. 14:27 ”in Me you may have peace” Jn. 16:33
    • “My joy” should fill you Jn. 15:11
    • “Who do men say that I am?” Mt. 16:13; Mk. 8:27 “who do you say that I am?” Mt. 16:15
    • Receive “Me” Mt. 18:5; Mk. 9:37; Lk. 9:48
    • Heaven and earth will pass away but “My words” will never Mt. [5:18] 24:35; Mk. 13:31; Lk. 21:33
    • Tell others about Jesus Mk. 5:19
    • “you belong to Christ” Mk. 9:41
    • Hear “My sayings” and do them Lk. 6:47
    • Jesus has “His own glory” Lk. 9:26; [Jn. 2:11; 16:14] The Son is “glorified” 8x Jn. 11:4; 12:23; 13:31?32; [17:1, 5, 10 24]
    • “He who hears you hears Me” Lk. 10:16
    • Jesus expects praise, from stones if necessary 1x Lk. 19:37?40
    • Return “to Me” Lk. 22:32
    • Be “My disciple” Lk. 14:27; Jn. 8:31; 15:8 Forsake all to “be My disciple” Lk. 14:33 ”you are My disciples” Jn. 13:35
    • “I shall send… the [Holy] Spirit” Jn. 15:26; 16:7
    • The Holy Spirit “will testify of Me” Jn. 15:26
    • We read in John 5 and Luke 24 that “the Scriptures… testify of Me” Jn. 5:39; [Lk. 24:44]
    • “You [Apostles] also will bear witness [of Me] because you have been with Me” Jn. 15:27
    • Paul gives “testimony concerning Me” Acts 22:18; 23:11
    • “the Son gives life to whom He will” Jn. 5:21
    • “seek Me” Jn. 6:26
    • Serve “Me” Jn. 12:26
    • “all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father” Jn. 5:23
    • “I am the bread of life,” “of heaven,” “of God” Jn. 6: 32-33, 35, 41, [48,] 51
    • Just seeing Christ is reason enough to believe [Jn. 6:36] him” Jn. 6:56
    • Drink “My blood” and eat “My flesh” Jn. 6:53?54, 56
    • “I will raise him up at the last day” Jn. 6:40 for He is the resurrection
    • “The world… hates Me” Jn. 7:7
    • “I am the light of the world” Jn. 8:12; 9:5; 12:46
    • “I bear witness of Myself” 1x Jn. 8:13-14, 18
    • “know… Jesus Christ” for “eternal life” Jn. 17:3; [8:19; 10:10, 14]
    • “the Son makes you free” Jn. 8:36
    • “Abraham rejoiced to see My day” Jn. 8:56; “Before Abraham was, I AM” Jn. 8:58
    • Of believers, Christ said, “I know them” Jn. 10:27
    • “I give them eternal life” Jn. 10:28
    • “I am the resurrection and the life” Jn. 11:25
    • I “will draw all peoples to Myself” Jn. 12:32
    • “I will… receive you to Myself” Jn. 14:3
    • Be “Mine” Jn. 14:24
    • “I am the vine” Jn. 15:5
    • “without Me you can do nothing” Jn. 15:5
    • “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you” Jn. 15:16
    • Those who oppress Christians are “persecuting Me” Acts 9:4?5; 22:7?8; 26:14?15
      “because they have not known… Me” Jn. 16:3
    • The Spirit “will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it” Jn. 16:14
    • “All things that the Father has are Mine” Jn. 16:15
    • “the Father… loves you, because you have loved Me” Jn. 16:27
    • “If I will that he remain” Jn. 21:22
    • “I have overcome the world” Jn. 16:33
    • “I am the way” Jn. 14:6
    • “I am… the truth” Jn. 14:6
    • “I am… the life” Jn. 14:6
    • “I will… manifest Myself” Jn. 14:21
    Which one says Jesus is God?

    They do not seem to fit the thread purpose. They do not prove or disprove the trinity.
    Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

    I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ

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    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keypurr View Post
    Which one says Jesus is God?

    They do not seem to fit the thread purpose. They do not prove or disprove the trinity.
    Talk about missing the forest for the trees...

    Sheesh....

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    Greetings Mixed_Brown,
    Quote Originally Posted by Mixed_Brown View Post
    What I am asking is SHOULD certain scriptures be cited as trinity proof scriptures, when they have been proved to do no such thing countless times.
    A few examples are
    KJV 1 John 5: 7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one
    This is not in any early manuscript so is obviously a later addition to the text, so shouldn't be used as a proof text.

    John 10:30 "I and the Father are one.”
    This is discussing the union between the Father and Son. This is not saying they are one in being.

    Again I am not creating this thread to debate the trinity. I am asking if scriptures like the ones cited above, (plus others) should continue to be used by trinitarians , although they clearly teach nothing at all about the trinity?
    My recent experience with Trinitarians in another thread is that they still like to use the two examples that you give above. I am not sure that “way 2 go” and “JudgeRightly” consider every verse in the List support the Trinity, but most of them do not in any way convince a non-Trinitarian. Actually the List does not have many verses that are normally used by Trinitarians. Perhaps we could pick on one reference after the other in the List, but what is posted seems to be outside the purpose of your thread. One verse on the List that is sometimes used by some Trinitarians, but that does not support the Trinity is John 8:28 and this could be added to your List of two references so far.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Over 6000 post club Aimiel's Avatar
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    Everybody always forgets this one:

    And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, 'Jesus Of Nazareth The King Of The Jews.' This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin. Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, 'Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.' Pilate answered. 'What I have written I have written.'"


    John 19:19-22 (KJV)

    The words: Yeshua HaNazarei v Melech HaYehudim: Jesus the Nazarei King of the Jews, is YHWH backwards.

    http://xwalk.ca/yhwh.html
    No Bueno.

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    Over 6000 post club Aimiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mixed_Brown View Post
    John 10:30 "I and the Father are one.”

    This is discussing the union between the Father and Son. This is not saying they are one in being.
    But, you didn't say WHY it doesn't say that They're One in Being.
    Again I am not creating this thread to debate the trinity. I am asking if scriptures like the ones cited above, (plus others) should continue to be used by trinitarians , although they clearly teach nothing at all about the trinity?
    Unless you give a reason that the Scriptures listed above DON'T prove The Trinity, you've nothing to argue and so, must either acquiesce or simply close your heart and mind to Truth as found in The Holy Scriptures.
    I'm sure even a trinitarians, many of you would agree that scriptures that are taken out of context or scriptures that have been misapplied shouldn't be used to support your claim.

    As a trinitrian or non-trinitarian, are there other scriptures you feel shouldn't be used?
    If you do feel they should still be used, why?
    Isn't it obvious? The Trinity is clearly the only understanding that one can arrive at given an open mind and heart while reading The Bible.
    No Bueno.

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    Greetings Aimel,
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    Everybody always forgets this one:
    And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, 'Jesus Of Nazareth The King Of The Jews.' This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin. Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, 'Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.' Pilate answered. 'What I have written I have written.'" John 19:19-22 (KJV)
    The words: Yeshua HaNazarei v Melech HaYehudim: Jesus the Nazarei King of the Jews, is YHWH backwards.
    I am not sure of what this proves to you, as Jesus’ Name also includes Yahweh, Yahweh’s salvation. On the site that you reference the following note appears on the top and below the article: “The conclusions of this Paper have been invalidated with New Research findings.” I assume that the web page owners disagree with the article.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    The Trinity is clearly the only understanding that one can arrive at given an open mind and heart while reading The Bible.
    My experience and understanding of what the Bible clearly teaches is the opposite to your conclusion.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Over 6000 post club Aimiel's Avatar
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    That's okay, because what I've experienced and that which I understand of what The Bible clearly teaches is the opposite of your conclusion.
    No Bueno.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings Mixed_Brown, My recent experience with Trinitarians in another thread is that they still like to use the two examples that you give above. I am not sure that “way 2 go” and “JudgeRightly” consider every verse in the List support the Trinity, but most of them do not in any way convince a non-Trinitarian. Actually the List does not have many verses that are normally used by Trinitarians. Perhaps we could pick on one reference after the other in the List, but what is posted seems to be outside the purpose of your thread. One verse on the List that is sometimes used by some Trinitarians, but that does not support the Trinity is John 8:28 and this could be added to your List of two references so far.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    The reason it doesn't convince anyone (especially you) is that they're too focused on the details, and not getting the big picture of what scripture says about Him.

    The above "list of prooftexts" is not that at all.

    It's a collection of scripture that, when taken as a whole, together, in context of the others, shows Jesus to be God, not just a man.

    But none of us trinitarians are surprised that you cannot see the forest for the trees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    But, you didn't say WHY it doesn't say that They're One in Being. Unless you give a reason that the Scriptures listed above DON'T prove The Trinity, you've nothing to argue and so, must either acquiesce or simply close your heart and mind to Truth as found in The Holy Scriptures.Isn't it obvious? The Trinity is clearly the only understanding that one can arrive at given an open mind and heart while reading The Bible.
    My apologise Aimel. You are correct that only asserted the meaning of the text, and didn't provide evidence.
    It just that in my experience with most decussions I have heard with trinitarians this scripture has been brought up, then debunked so many times, that I thought that most would agree that it is not talking about Jesus and the Father being One in being.

    I am assuming you would agree with using this text then??

    Allow me to clarify why this could in no way be a trinity proof scripture.

    John 10:30 "I and the Father are one.”

    A Greek word used here for 'one' (hen). So what does this 'one' mean? We can either assume it means oneness of being or oneness in unity. These are our two options. Read the surrounding verses and you'll see the context doesn't reveal which one it should be. Which is correct then?

    Fortunately this isn't the only time Jesus uses this term.

    John 17:21- 22:  so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one

    Here Jesus again describes himself as being 'one' with God once more. It is exactly the same Greek word used for 'one' each time (hen). Here Jesus clearly states what he means when he uses this term. UNITY. He even makes a request that his followers be 'one' in the same way that he and the Father are 'one'.
    This can be oneness of being as his followers can't have a oneness of being with God or each other. This would make no literally no sense

    As you can see I do have an argument, so in light of this as a trinitarian would you agree that John 10:30 is clearly taken out of context when used as a proof scripture? Or would you continue to use it?

    Also you never mentioned 1 John 5:7. Would you agree this shouldn't be used?

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    I believe you have misunderstood they purpose of this thread.

    I didn't create it to debate every trinity or anti trinity scripture.

    I am basically asking trinitarians and non trinitarians which scriptures they think shouldn't be used in defense of the trinity.

    Please let me know you thoughts on the verses I stated rather that just posting dozens of scriptures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    link Jesus is God . no thus saith the lord.
    Christ’s Self-focus:



    • “Follow Me” 19x Mt. 4:19; 8:22; 10:38; 16:24; 19:21; Mk. 1:17; 2:14; 8:34; 10:21; Lk. 5:27; 9:59; 18:22; Jn. 1:43; 8:12; 10:27; 12:26; 13:36; 21:19, 22
    • Pray and act “in My name” 18x Mt. 7:22; 18:5; 18:20; [24:5]; Mk. 9:37, 39, 41; [13:6]; Lk. 9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; Jn. 14:13?14; 15:16; 16:23?24, 26; Acts 9:15
    • “the Holy Spirit” comes “in My name” Jn. 14:26
    • “for My name’s sake” leave family and property Mt. 19:29; or even be killed 5x Mt. 24:9; [Lk. 21:12, 17;] Jn. 15:21; Acts 9:16
    • Believe in the “name of the… Son” and “in the Son” 3x Jn. 3:18, 36; 9:35 and “in Him [Jesus]” 4x Jn. 3:18; 6:29, 40; 8:31
    • “believe in Me” 14x Mt. 18:6; Mk. 9:42; Jn. 3:15?16, 18; 6:35, 47; 7:38; 11:25, 26; 12:44, 46; 14:1, 12; 16:8; 17:20
    • You “are sanctified by faith in Me” Acts 26:18
    • Live “in Me” Jn. 11:26
    • “come after Me” Mk. 8:34; Lk. 14:27
    • Abide “in Me” Jn. 15:2, 4:5, 7 “abide in Me” or else Jn. 15:6 “abide in My love” Jn. 15:9?10
    • “where two or three are gathered” Jesus is “there in the midst of them” Mt. 18:20
    • So too: “I [Jesus, will abide] in you” Jn. 15:4?5
    • “know that I am He” Jn. 8:28 or “if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins” Jn. 8:24
    • Do things “for My sake” Mt. 10:22, 39; even lose your life “for My sake” 4x Mt. 16:25; Mk. 8:35; 10:29; Lk. 6:22
    • “I never knew you, depart from Me” Mt. 7:23
    • “I am willing; be cleansed” Mt. 8:3; Mk.. 1:41
    • ”confess Me” Mt. 10:32; Lk. 12:8
    • Do not deny “Me” 7x Mt. 10:33; 26:34; Mk. 14:30, 72; Lk. 12:9; 22:34; Jn. 13:38
    • Do not be “ashamed of Me” Mk. 8:38; Lk. 9:26 nor "My words"
    • “love Me” 5x Jn. 14:15, 21, 23?24, 28
    • Do not reject “Me” Lk. 10:16; Jn. 12:48
    • “He who is not with Me is against Me” Lk. 11:23
    • Love Me “more than” your family members Mt. 10:37; [Lk. 14:26]
    • “I… have loved you” Jn. 15:9, 12
    • Be “worthy of Me” Mt. 10:37?38
    • “Come to Me” 5x Mt. 11:28; Lk. 6:47; Jn. 5:40; 6:35; 7:37
    • “I will give you rest” Mt. 11:28
    • “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light” Mt. 11:30
    • I am “greater than the temple” “than Jonah” “than Solomon” Mt. 12:6, 41?42
    • I am “Lord even of the Sabbath” Mt. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5 [Lord of God's Ten Commandments]
    • Thus He says keep “My commandments” 4x Jn. 14:15, 21; 15:10, 12
    • “You are My friends if you do whatever I command you” Jn. 15:14
    • “keep My word” Jn. 14:23?24
    • “He who is not with Me is against Me” Mt. 12:30
    • The angels are “His angels” Mt. 13:41; 16:27 and He commands “His angels” Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
    • The kingdom is “His kingdom” Mt. 13:41 and He calls it “My kingdom” Lk. 22:30
    • Jesus called it “My church” Mt. 16:18 and believers are “My sheep” Jn. 10:14, 27 and they are “His elect” Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
    • Paul is a “vessel of Mine to bear My name” Acts 9:15
    • “all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine” Jn. 17:10
    • “My peace I give” Jn. 14:27 ”in Me you may have peace” Jn. 16:33
    • “My joy” should fill you Jn. 15:11
    • “Who do men say that I am?” Mt. 16:13; Mk. 8:27 “who do you say that I am?” Mt. 16:15
    • Receive “Me” Mt. 18:5; Mk. 9:37; Lk. 9:48
    • Heaven and earth will pass away but “My words” will never Mt. [5:18] 24:35; Mk. 13:31; Lk. 21:33
    • Tell others about Jesus Mk. 5:19
    • “you belong to Christ” Mk. 9:41
    • Hear “My sayings” and do them Lk. 6:47
    • Jesus has “His own glory” Lk. 9:26; [Jn. 2:11; 16:14] The Son is “glorified” 8x Jn. 11:4; 12:23; 13:31?32; [17:1, 5, 10 24]
    • “He who hears you hears Me” Lk. 10:16
    • Jesus expects praise, from stones if necessary 1x Lk. 19:37?40
    • Return “to Me” Lk. 22:32
    • Be “My disciple” Lk. 14:27; Jn. 8:31; 15:8 Forsake all to “be My disciple” Lk. 14:33 ”you are My disciples” Jn. 13:35
    • “I shall send… the [Holy] Spirit” Jn. 15:26; 16:7
    • The Holy Spirit “will testify of Me” Jn. 15:26
    • We read in John 5 and Luke 24 that “the Scriptures… testify of Me” Jn. 5:39; [Lk. 24:44]
    • “You [Apostles] also will bear witness [of Me] because you have been with Me” Jn. 15:27
    • Paul gives “testimony concerning Me” Acts 22:18; 23:11
    • “the Son gives life to whom He will” Jn. 5:21
    • “seek Me” Jn. 6:26
    • Serve “Me” Jn. 12:26
    • “all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father” Jn. 5:23
    • “I am the bread of life,” “of heaven,” “of God” Jn. 6: 32-33, 35, 41, [48,] 51
    • Just seeing Christ is reason enough to believe [Jn. 6:36] him” Jn. 6:56
    • Drink “My blood” and eat “My flesh” Jn. 6:53?54, 56
    • “I will raise him up at the last day” Jn. 6:40 for He is the resurrection
    • “The world… hates Me” Jn. 7:7
    • “I am the light of the world” Jn. 8:12; 9:5; 12:46
    • “I bear witness of Myself” 1x Jn. 8:13-14, 18
    • “know… Jesus Christ” for “eternal life” Jn. 17:3; [8:19; 10:10, 14]
    • “the Son makes you free” Jn. 8:36
    • “Abraham rejoiced to see My day” Jn. 8:56; “Before Abraham was, I AM” Jn. 8:58
    • Of believers, Christ said, “I know them” Jn. 10:27
    • “I give them eternal life” Jn. 10:28
    • “I am the resurrection and the life” Jn. 11:25
    • I “will draw all peoples to Myself” Jn. 12:32
    • “I will… receive you to Myself” Jn. 14:3
    • Be “Mine” Jn. 14:24
    • “I am the vine” Jn. 15:5
    • “without Me you can do nothing” Jn. 15:5
    • “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you” Jn. 15:16
    • Those who oppress Christians are “persecuting Me” Acts 9:4?5; 22:7?8; 26:14?15
      “because they have not known… Me” Jn. 16:3
    • The Spirit “will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it” Jn. 16:14
    • “All things that the Father has are Mine” Jn. 16:15
    • “the Father… loves you, because you have loved Me” Jn. 16:27
    • “If I will that he remain” Jn. 21:22
    • “I have overcome the world” Jn. 16:33
    • “I am the way” Jn. 14:6
    • “I am… the truth” Jn. 14:6
    • “I am… the life” Jn. 14:6
    • “I will… manifest Myself” Jn. 14:21

    I believe you have misunderstood they purpose of this thread.

    I didn't create it to debate every trinity or anti trinity scripture.

    I am basically asking trinitarians and non trinitarians which scriptures they think shouldn't be used in defense of the trinity.

    Please let me know you thoughts on the verses I stated rather that just posting dozens of scriptures.

  22. #14
    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    First of all... who are you talking to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mixed_Brown View Post
    I believe you have misunderstood they purpose of this thread.

    I didn't create it to debate every trinity or anti trinity scripture.

    I am basically asking trinitarians and non trinitarians which scriptures they think shouldn't be used in defense of the trinity.
    In other words, you're asking trinitarians, who use the entire Bible, which states that He is triune, to state which verses say that He is not?

    Are you trying to introduce contradiction into scripture?

    Please let me know you thoughts on the verses I stated rather that just posting dozens of scriptures.
    See, here's the thing. The burden of proof is on you to show that what the Bible says, which is that God is triune, is wrong.

    It's called "onus probandi."
    Last edited by JudgeRightly; January 17th, 2019 at 08:23 AM. Reason: Quoted him before his edit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    Everybody always forgets this one:

    And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, 'Jesus Of Nazareth The King Of The Jews.' This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin. Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, 'Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.' Pilate answered. 'What I have written I have written.'"


    John 19:19-22 (KJV)

    The words: Yeshua HaNazarei v Melech HaYehudim: Jesus the Nazarei King of the Jews, is YHWH backwards.

    http://xwalk.ca/yhwh.html
    There is a really good reason EVERYONE forgets that one! I think very few trinitarians consider this stretch to be viable "evidence".

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