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Thread: Baptised babies can still be killed, or they can still burn in hell for their sins: R

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capricorn View Post
    However, this is too general and oversimplified; because the Bible says that MOST people are destined to fail the Judgment, whilst only a FEW are destined to enter the Kingdom of heaven; you insinuate that this applies to all people, and All Christians, but this is clearly contrary to the Bible: Matthew 7:13, 14, 21, 22, 23, 22:14.

    Also, God was gracious to redeem David and his son because David killed Uriah and therefore broke the second commandment to love thy neighbor; but Jesus’s first and great commandment to love God is far greater than the second commandment: Matthew 22:38.

    Thus, David’s breaking the second commandment was far less serious than breaking the first commandment to love God.

    David had done nothing to attack God by killing Uriah, but the greater sin is to attack God and his Son Jesus; thereby, breaking the first and foremost commandment by doing so: Luke 10:28 and Matthew 22:38.

    Having said that, I know that nothing I say would ever convince you to see things my way; and so, I think we can both agree to disagree on the subject of repentance and forgiveness.

    As nothing you say will change the outcome of Judgment day in respect of those individuals named: Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15.


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    The Bible says:
    Ephesians 1:3-6
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capricorn View Post
    Nothing you have said can change the fact that God can draw the line wherever he chooses to divide the so called “sheep” and “goats”; but it will always be a crooked line, never a straight line; and the line is drawn wherever it is expedient to divide the two classes: Romans 9:15, 21.

    God has prerogative powers, and discretionary powers to draw the line wherever he chooses:-

    (1) As Creator God is Sovereign over Salvation, and Sovereign over his Creation: Romans 9:15, 21.

    (2) All people without exception are guilty and culpable and deserving the death penalty as punishment for breaking the first and/or second commandment: Luke 10:27, Ezekiel 18:4, Romans 3:10, 23, 6:23, Ecclesiastes 7:20. Thus, all people are liable to be exterminated in the lake of fire for their sins against God, and sins against their fellow humans: Luke 10:28, Ezekiel 18:4. Thus, it is due process that God should destroy everyone without exception, but such a process can only be forestalled by the point highlighted in Article (3).

    (3) However, God has also promised that he would divide all of those who are guilty into two separate or distinct groups; namely, the so called “sheep” and “goats” so as not to kill everybody: Matthew 25:33.

    Now, taken together, there is a trade off between (2) & (3); in such a way that God is not going to destroy everyone (Although they are still liable to be destroyed), but he is still required to absolve a certain number of people according to the promises he had made in Matthew 25:33 and Revelation 5:9, 7:9.

    Thus, interaction between (2) and (3) means that God can draw the line wherever he chooses; but it will always be a crooked line, never a straight: Romans 9:15, 21.

    Since the line is drawn wherever it is considered expedient to divide the “sheep” and “goats”; but the line will always be crooked, never a straight line at all: Romans 9:15, 21.

    Thus, God will only show mercy to a FEW, but MOST people will never have God’s mercy on the day of Judgment: Romans 9:15, 21, Matthew 7:13, 14, 21, 22, 23, 22:14.

    Last but not least, the example of David is not a very good example at all; since the murder of Uriah serves as an example to highlight breaking the second commandment to love thy neighbor; but this has nothing to do with breaking the first and great commandment to love God, which is a far worse offence than breaking the second commandment.

    Because David can still be absolved for breaking the second commandment doesn’t mean to say that God would do likewise for those who have broken the first and great commandment to love God and his Son Jesus: Luke 10:28, Matthew 22:37, Romans 10:9, John 11:25-26, and 1 Corinthians 15:16, 17.

    Thus, this particular example of David has nothing to do with breaking the first and great commandment (Matthew 22:37, 38), which is far worse, and far more serious than breaking the second commandment (Matthew 22:39) by David’s murder of Uriah the Hittite.

    Therefore, this particular example of David cannot be used to illustrate a general point concerning repentance and the forgiveness of sins; since the first and second commandment are clearly different.

    Thus, absolution for breaking the second commandment cannot be used to highlight what would happen in the case of somebody breaking the first commandment; BUT IT IS FAR LESS LIKELY THAT THEY WOULD BE FORGIVEN AT ALL IF THEY HAVE BROKEN THE FIRST COMMANDMENT TO LOVE GOD AND HIS SON JESUS: Luke 10:28, Matthew 22:37, 38, Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:16, 17.



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    God separates according to His will.

    Matthew 25:33-34,41
    And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
    Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
    “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
    God chooses whom He will reconcile into covenant relationship and whom He will leave under the curse of Adam. This is God's decision. We bow to His Sovereign choice.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER steko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    God separates according to His will.


    Matthew 25:33-34,41
    And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
    Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
    “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
    God chooses whom He will reconcile into covenant relationship and whom He will leave under the curse of Adam. This is God's decision. We bow to His Sovereign choice.
    Matthew 25:33-34,41 is a judgement which will take place in the valley of Jehosaphat(Kidron/Joel3) and is determined by what the sheep and goats will do and not according to GOD's arbitrary choosing.
    It has nothing to do with the Rev 20 white throne judgement.
    It is a different judgement which concerns how the nations treat Christ's Israelite brethren thru the great tribulation and will take place when Christ returns to earth after the tribulation and takes His rightful throne... the throne of David.

    Humanity is presently under the ministration of the grace of GOD and will not be judged according to their works but only on the free will acceptance or rejection of the gift of GOD...by faith in Christ's finished work on the cross.

    The sheep and goat judgement of Mt 25 and the white throne judgement of Rev 20 are both judgements according to works.
    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steko View Post
    Matthew 25:33-34,41 is a judgement which will take place in the valley of Jehosaphat(Kidron/Joel3) and is determined by what the sheep and goats will do and not according to GOD's arbitrary choosing.
    It has nothing to do with the Rev 20 white throne judgement.
    It is a different judgement which concerns how the nations treat Christ's Israelite brethren thru the great tribulation and will take place when Christ returns to earth after the tribulation and takes His rightful throne... the throne of David.

    Humanity is presently under the ministration of the grace of GOD and will not be judged according to their works but only on the free will acceptance or rejection of the gift of GOD...by faith in Christ's finished work on the cross.

    The sheep and goat judgement of Mt 25 and the white throne judgement of Rev 20 are both judgements according to works.
    We disagree on eschatology. It also seems you are a dispensationalist while I recognize covenant relationship with God always saving by grace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    We disagree on eschatology. It also seems you are a dispensationalist
    Yep.
    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

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    those are made-up words

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    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capricorn View Post
    2 Samuel 12:23 - But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I SHALL GO TO HIM, BUT HE SHALL NOT RETURN TO ME.

    Evidently, they have both gone to heaven; but only because David had repented of his sin that God was able to mitigate the penalty by killing his firstborn rather than having David killed instead:-

    2 Samuel 12:13-14
    13 So David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”

    And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die.”

    However, this particular example of David is peculiar to David, which cannot be used to infer the end result for others who have sinned against God:-

    Romans 9:15-16
    15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

    Therefore, it is clear that God would only show mercy to some, but not everyone will have God’s mercy:-

    (1) Some people have died in their sins having refused to repent of their sins

    OR

    (2) Their repentance is rejected on the grounds of insincerity.

    Thus, this particular example of David cannot be used to demonstrate that God would always show mercy to those who have transgressed the Law of Christ.


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    Considering that we have at least one passage on the authority of Christ that "no man has ascended to heaven" and Peter specifically contrasts David against Christ, that Christ has ascended to heaven and was not left in hell, I think we have it on good authority that David did not go to heaven. If you have a passage that you believe says David went to heaven, it should also be compared against those two passages.

    John 3:13 KJV
    (13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    Acts 2:34-35 KJV
    (34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
    (35) Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

    How anyone decided to use David as the proof that "babies go to heaven" is beyond me, especially when this is the one and only person that is specified by name as NOT being in heaven. Following the premise already stated, if David went to be with the child, and David did not go to heaven, then neither is that child in heaven.
    Last edited by Rosenritter; January 15th, 2019 at 04:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodeneye View Post
    Baptism, in no way provides any benefit to babies. Someone who decides to get baptized, makes a conscious decision to do so. Jesus never advocated infant baptism. His parents did not baptize him. And the early Christian's never baptized children.
    The early Christians were Jews who followed the commandments in the Torah about circumcising their infant males as a sign that the children would be raised as Jews.

    Luke 2:21
    21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.


    The early Gentile Christians did not circumcise their males as a sign of their faith.
    They did use baptism as a way of showing they were in the faith.
    Infant baptism probably started as a public declaration that the children would be brought up in the faith (since circumcision was for the Jews and not the Gentiles).
    Over time, Christian baptism took on additional mystical meanings.
    These additional mystical meanings are the only reason that infant baptism is controversial.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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