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Thread: Non-Violence Thread

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    Non-Violence Thread

    In this thread I would like to explore non-violence. Both the reasons for it, what it is, and if there are any alternatives to non-violence and what they might be. For example, murderers are to be put to death according to the Law, but pacifists do not advocate violence of any kind, no war even. What can we learn from Jesus and the Bible? What have we learned through personal experience? In this thread violence is not allowed and non-violence is encouraged to the extreme. Do not be violent.

    Shalom (Peace),

    Jacob
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    God's intent is for His children to love others, even as you love yourself. Sadly, most don't.
    God gave Noah a commandment to punish violence after the flood;
    Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made He man.

    Abraham seems to have been operating on this principle, as well as a desire to rescue his people, when he pursued the 5 kings.

    The Mosaic Law was a unique situation. God was giving Israel a home land, and the Mosaic Law was both spiritual and governmental. They were commanded to include capital punishment, as well as OTHER punitive measures, as a nation. Salvation was achieved by joining the nation of Israel, and obeying God.
    The New Testament is an entirely different situation. You have the potential for EVERY NATION to have members of the Church of God living under their government. We are told in several passages, that we are commanded to obey, and to be subject to, any government having jurisdiction over us. The only exception to this "rule" is, when God's commandments contradict worldly law. There, like Peter said; "We ought to obey God rather than men".

    We are told in both OT and NT that God determines the rulers of nations, depending on His plan. We are told the governments are God's servants, and they don't bear the sword in vain. (That doesn't mean they are righteous, it means they serve a purpose)

    We are also told to "recompense to no man evil for evil", to "turn the other cheek", to "live peaceably with all men", to "pray for those that spitefully use you, and persecute you". We are told to leave vengeance up to God, (and He in turn uses the governments of the world to maintain some level of order. When the Church took capital punishment into their own hands, it was horrific.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    In this thread violence is not allowed and non-violence is encouraged to the extreme. Do not be violent.


    Why I oughtta...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    God's intent is for His children to love others, even as you love yourself. Sadly, most don't.
    God gave Noah a commandment to punish violence after the flood;
    Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made He man.

    Abraham seems to have been operating on this principle, as well as a desire to rescue his people, when he pursued the 5 kings.

    The Mosaic Law was a unique situation. God was giving Israel a home land, and the Mosaic Law was both spiritual and governmental. They were commanded to include capital punishment, as well as OTHER punitive measures, as a nation. Salvation was achieved by joining the nation of Israel, and obeying God.
    The New Testament is an entirely different situation. You have the potential for EVERY NATION to have members of the Church of God living under their government. We are told in several passages, that we are commanded to obey, and to be subject to, any government having jurisdiction over us. The only exception to this "rule" is, when God's commandments contradict worldly law. There, like Peter said; "We ought to obey God rather than men".

    We are told in both OT and NT that God determines the rulers of nations, depending on His plan. We are told the governments are God's servants, and they don't bear the sword in vain. (That doesn't mean they are righteous, it means they serve a purpose)

    We are also told to "recompense to no man evil for evil", to "turn the other cheek", to "live peaceably with all men", to "pray for those that spitefully use you, and persecute you". We are told to leave vengeance up to God, (and He in turn uses the governments of the world to maintain some level of order. When the Church took capital punishment into their own hands, it was horrific.
    You have a valuable contribution here. What church are you talking about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    Why I oughtta...
    I believe that you ought not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    You have a valuable contribution here.
    Thank you for the kind words.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob
    What church are you talking about?
    Primarily the "Holy Roman" Church... also known as Catholicism. Some of her "daughters" have occasionally continued her bloody practices. The inquisitions, crusades, burning at the stake, hangings, and many other forms of murder lasted for centuries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Thank you for the kind words.
    Primarily the "Holy Roman" Church... also known as Catholicism. Some of her "daughters" have occasionally continued her bloody practices. The inquisitions, crusades, burning at the stake, hangings, and many other forms of murder lasted for centuries.
    Thank you for your answer.

    Then you are not talking about justice, but injustice. However, should anyone ever be put to death for anything is likely a non-violence question, even though some may have a way of death that they excuse as non-violent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Thank you for your answer.

    Then you are not talking about justice, but injustice.
    There is a HUGE problem with mortal man trying to achieve "Justice". We are fallible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob
    However, should anyone ever be put to death for anything is likely a non-violence question, even though some may have a way of death that they excuse as non-violent.
    The New Testament commandments are, "love your neighbor as yourself" and Rom 12:19-2119 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord. 20 "BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    There is a HUGE problem with mortal man trying to achieve "Justice". We are fallible.
    We can try to help other people. But the decision of the Judge is the decision of God.
    The New Testament commandments are, "love your neighbor as yourself" and Rom 12:19-2119 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord. 20 "BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

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    Luke 6:27-36 King James Version)

    27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
    28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
    29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
    30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
    31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
    32For if ye love them which love you what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
    34And if ye to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
    35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
    36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Fatheralso is merciful.

    and some more:

    Matthew 26:52
    “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

    Matthew 5:9
    Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.

    Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."
    John 18:36

    And His faithful disciple harmonize with Jesus' word:

    For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. (2 corinthian 10:4-5)

    Romans 12:17-21
    17Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

    II Corinthians 10:3,4
    "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds."

    Ephesians 6:12
    "For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."

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    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    Luke 6:27-36 King James Version)

    27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
    28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
    29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
    30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
    31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
    32For if ye love them which love you what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
    34And if ye to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
    35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
    36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Fatheralso is merciful.

    and some more:

    Matthew 26:52
    “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

    Matthew 5:9
    Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.

    Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."
    John 18:36

    And His faithful disciple harmonize with Jesus' word:

    For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. (2 corinthian 10:4-5)

    Romans 12:17-21
    17Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

    II Corinthians 10:3,4
    "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds."

    Ephesians 6:12
    "For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."
    Thank you.

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    But in the last days it shall come to pass,
    that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains,
    and it shall be exalted above the hills;
    and people shall flow unto it.
    And many nations shall come, and say, Come,
    and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
    and to the house of the God of Jacob;
    and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths:
    for the law shall go forth of Zion,
    and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
    And He shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off;
    and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks:
    nation shall not lift up a sword against nation,
    neither shall they learn war any more.
    Micah 4:1-3

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    Quote Originally Posted by comingfrom View Post
    But in the last days it shall come to pass,
    that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains,
    and it shall be exalted above the hills;
    and people shall flow unto it.
    And many nations shall come, and say, Come,
    and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
    and to the house of the God of Jacob;
    and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths:
    for the law shall go forth of Zion,
    and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
    And He shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off;
    and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks:
    nation shall not lift up a sword against nation,
    neither shall they learn war any more.
    Micah 4:1-3
    Amen.

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    The question is if non-violence keeps people from understanding or realizing justice. We should listen to the courts and determine if justice involves violence. What is involved in punishment? Should there be a deterent? Is there justice in not saying anything or keeping someone from something? Or, what is true grace, mercy, forgiveness?

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