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Thread: The Gift of Eternal Life

  1. #16
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    It isn't a question of bravery, Jerry. It's a matter of whether there will be any profit in engaging you on this topic. You start right off with 1 John 5 and speak of eternal life, but John is quite clear he considers Jesus as eternal life.
    John says in no uncertain terms that those to whom he addressed his epistle already had eternal life and that life is in the Son:

    "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

    John consider the Lord Jesus as eternal life but that does not change the fact that John tells these believers that their lives are in the Son who is eternal life.

    Are you denying that they already possessed eternal life? Despite the fact that "whoever" believes in the Lord Jesus has eternal life and will never perish?:

    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"
    (Jn.3:16).

  2. #17
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    John says in no uncertain terms that those to whom he addressed his epistle already had eternal life and that life is in the Son:

    "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

    John consider the Lord Jesus as eternal life but that does not change the fact that John tells these believers that their lives are in the Son who is eternal life.

    Are you denying that they already possessed eternal life? Despite the fact that "whoever" believes in the Lord Jesus has eternal life and will never perish?:

    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"
    (Jn.3:16).
    Thank you for proving you refuse to listen. You'll repeat yourself over and over again WITHOUT addressing any points that have been made to you. You ignore every single IF that we see in scripture. Why do you do that, Jerry? "If you confess your sins, they will be forgiven.."

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  4. #18
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Thank you for proving you refuse to listen. You'll repeat yourself over and over again WITHOUT addressing any points that have been made to you. You ignore every single IF that we see in scripture. Why do you do that, Jerry? "If you confess your sins, they will be forgiven.."
    I did listen and I addressed what you said. Do you really think anything you said somehow makes void the fact that John told those whom he addressed that they already have been given and this eternal life is in the Son? You said:

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    You start right off with 1 John 5 and speak of eternal life, but John is quite clear he considers Jesus as eternal life.
    That's your answer to what John told said here?:

    "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

    I don't see that your argument has any validity at all. Just because John considers the Lord Jesus as eternal life in no way nullifies the fact that John told them that they have already been given eternal life and that life is in the Son. You certainly said nothing whatsoever that proves that they don't already have eternal life.

    You obviously don't understand how believers are given eternal life in the Son but in the following passage Paul explains exactly how that happens:

    "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" (Eph.2:4-5).

    That is how believers have a "life in the Son." John tells those he addresses that they too have eternal life and that life is in the Son because they have been made alive together with Him. Besides that, we read that "whoever" believes have eternal life and shall never perish:

    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).

    You seem to think that just because John considers that the Lord Jesus is eternal life somehow is a good argument which answers all of the verses which I have quoted from the Bible. However, it is no argument at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Why do you do that, Jerry? "If you confess your sins, they will be forgiven.."
    John is writing those words and you quote him as saying that if "you" confess your sins, but in reality he uses the pronoun "we," which puts them in the category of believers. Also notice that his words are addressed to believers who have already been given eternal life in the Son (1 Jn.5:11) and please recall the verse which I quoted which says "whoever" believes has eternal life and will not perish.

    The words which you quote are in regard to being in "fellowship" with the Lord and not in regard to "salvation" We can't serve the Lord unless we are in fellowship with Him. But you never have been able to grasp the difference between the Christian's position in Him (raised up together and sitting in heavenly places with the Lord Jesus--Eph.2:6; Col.3:1) from our "walk" which includes being in fellowship with Him (1 Jn.1:6) and serving Him (Ro.12:1).

    You just refuse to believe the simple truth that "whoever" believes in the Lord has eternal life and will not perish (Jn.3:16).

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    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Receiving eternal life by works is only if a person "continues" in good works. But since all have sinned and have come short of the glory of God all people are dependent on grace.
    You seem to be confused about the difference between Grace (something given to show pleasure) and mercy (not giving a punishment that is deserved).[/QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Have you not yet learned to distinguish one's "service" for the LORD from one's salvation.
    Those who refuse to serve the LORD will not receive salvation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    was never saved in the first place
    You seem to be very confused about how a person is saved and when that salvation takes place.
    Learn to read what is written.

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  6. #20
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    You seem to be very confused about how a person is saved and when that salvation takes place.
    I agree with the answer Paul and those with him gave to the following question:

    "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

    A person is saved the moment when they believe, as witnessed the following words of the Lord Jesus:

    "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life"
    (Jn.5:24).

    In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

    In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

    "The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

    Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

    So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life.

  7. #21
    TOL Legend john w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Thank you for proving you refuse to listen. You'll repeat yourself over and over again WITHOUT addressing any points that have been made to you. You ignore every single IF that we see in scripture. Why do you do that, Jerry? "If you confess your sins, they will be forgiven.."
    That is his MO on TOL.
    Saint John W

  8. #22
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I agree with the answer Paul and those with him gave to the following question:

    "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

    A person is saved the moment when they believe, as witnessed the following words of the Lord Jesus:

    "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life"
    (Jn.5:24).

    In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

    In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

    "The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

    Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

    So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life.
    You claim that there are many people that have already received eternal life, yet most of them have died, proving that they have not yet received eternal life.

    Paul said he has the hope of eternal life according to the promise of God.

    Titus 1:1-2
    1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
    2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;



    What you call "saved" is not receiving eternal life, it is receiving the promise of eternal life.

    1 John 2:25
    25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

    Learn to read what is written.

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  9. #23
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    What you call "saved" is not receiving eternal life, it is receiving the promise of eternal life.
    According to John the promise was realized because he said the following to the believers:

    "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son"
    (Jn.5:11).

    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    You claim that there are many people that have already received eternal life, yet most of them have died, proving that they have not yet received eternal life.
    In the future believers will receive immortal bodies which will never die. But the answer given by Paul and those with him was in answer to a salvation already possessed by believers:

    "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

    Here is the salvation which is already in the possession of believers:

    "Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls"
    (1 Pet.1:8-9).

  10. #24
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    In the future believers will receive immortal bodies which will never die.
    By definition, the future time when "believers will receive immortal bodies which will never die" is the time when believers actually receive eternal life.

    1 Corinthians 15:54
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Here is the salvation which is already in the possession of believers:

    "Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls"
    (1 Pet.1:8-9).
    Yes, the salvation of our souls is the end result of our faith (it happens after we have lived out our faith).


    Hebrews 9:15
    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



    Hebrews 10:36
    36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

    Learn to read what is written.

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  11. #25
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    By definition, the future time when "believers will receive immortal bodies which will never die" is the time when believers actually receive eternal life.
    I will believe Peter instead of you because he tells those who received his first epistle that they had already been given eternal life:

    "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (Jn.5:11).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I will believe Peter instead of you because he tells those who received his first epistle that they had already been given eternal life:

    "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (Jn.5:11).
    You are not believing Peter.
    Peter states that we receive the salvation of our souls at the appearing of Jesus Christ.

    1 Peter 1:6-9
    6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
    7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
    8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
    9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

    Learn to read what is written.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    You are not believing Peter.
    Peter states that we receive the salvation of our souls at the appearing of Jesus Christ.

    1 Peter 1:6-9
    6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
    7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
    8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
    9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
    The word "receiving" means that they have already received the salvation of their souls. If that salvation remmains in the future he would not have used the word "receiving."

  14. #28
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    The word "receiving" means that they have already received the salvation of their souls. If that salvation remmains in the future he would not have used the word "receiving."
    You seem to be ignoring the context.
    Peter is talking about the trial of your faith that lasts until the appearing of Jesus Christ.
    Peter states that at the end of the trial of your faith you will be receiving the salvation of your souls.

    You also need to figure out how to parse verbs.

    Have receiving? No
    Have already receiving? No

    Are receiving? Maybe, but not in the context of the verse which states that now you are in the trial of your faith.
    Will be receiving? Yes.
    Learn to read what is written.

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  15. #29
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Will be receiving? Yes.
    Let us look what the Lord Jesus said about receiving eternal life:

    "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

    In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

    In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

    "The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

    Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

    So once a person believes he receives eternal life. You can argue all you want that I am wrong but I will believe what the Lord Jesus said instead of what you say.

  16. #30
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Let us look what the Lord Jesus said about receiving eternal life:

    "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

    In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

    In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

    "The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

    Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

    So once a person believes he receives eternal life. You can argue all you want that I am wrong but I will believe what the Lord Jesus said instead of what you say.
    When a person believes, his name is written in the book of life, and he is guaranteed to receive eternal life at the return of Jesus.
    And once a person's name is blotted out from the book of life because of unbelief, that person no longer has eternal life, but has a guarantee of being thrown into the lake of fire.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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