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    Death

    Could God have provided salvation to us, without the physical death of Jesus?
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    Could God have provided salvation to us, without the physical death of Jesus?
    Nope.

    Three times in the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus prayed:

    He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will. . . . Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done. . . . So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. - Matthew 26:39,42,44 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4&version=NKJV

    And He still went to the cross.

    Which tells us that no, there was no other way for God to save us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Nope.

    Three times in the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus prayed:

    He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will. . . . Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done. . . . So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. - Matthew 26:39,42,44 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4&version=NKJV

    And He still went to the cross.

    Which tells us that no, there was no other way for God to save us.
    But but but...He could have changed the Law no? I mean He had to because that Law DEMANDED IT...but He could have changed it...like He did afterwards...is the claim...

    Why not BEFORE and thus spare the torture and loss its risk...

    He could have argued it wasnt meant for Him...in its dispensation...you know...find another way...

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    But but but...He could have changed the Law no? I mean He had to because that Law DEMANDED IT...but He could have changed it...like He did afterwards...is the claim...

    Why not BEFORE and thus spare the torture and loss its risk...

    He could have argued it wasnt meant for Him...in its dispensation...you know...find another way...
    I said
    Do you really want to judge God or question Him?

    [Rom 11:33-34
    [33] Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable [are] His judgments and His ways past finding out!
    [34] "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    But but but...He could have changed the Law no? I mean He had to because that Law DEMANDED IT...but He could have changed it...like He did afterwards...is the claim...

    Why not BEFORE and thus spare the torture and loss its risk...

    He could have argued it wasnt meant for Him...in its dispensation...you know...find another way...
    Changing Law is not an option because Law stands for justification. Justification stands for God's just. It is for the justification reason that Jesus needs to be crucified twice to justify the salvation of the dead.

    ======
    God is going to build a Heaven. It's more like you are going to build a large mansion, and to invite people to live with you forever. Will you accept someone who keeps teaching your children to become drug dealers and additive to drugs? You won't. So before you accept anyone to live with you, you need to set up criteria and rules for everyone to follow if they would like to live with you. That's the nature of what Law is.

    Once rules are set, all candidates are equally judged under open witnessing. There's not much you can do even when you are God, if some candidates failed the judgment under open witnessing and in an open judgment.

    In a nutshell, those not chosen are those not "suitable" to live with God in a forever realm. God's job is to define a covenant such that they would be disqualified openly and removed. He also defines predestination/fates for those "suitable" to live with him for them to show up as who they are, such that they can be qualified openly in accordance to the covenant in place.

    To put it another way, God knows before hand who is going to be saved and who's not. However there's not much He can do if someone is openly witnessed and openly judged as the "disqualified".

    That being said. God is the God of living but not the God of the dead. If you want the dead to be saved legitimately, Jesus would have to be crucified twice (this won't happen, that's why God is not the God of the dead). If on the other hand, you would like the dead to be saved illegitimately, it only means that God is not a just God to fail to stick to His own Law and covenants. If so, God's realm is not a lawful realm.
    ======

    An analogy I can think of is,
    if the mayor of your city can change the laws at will such that he can spare all the criminals and murderers at will, if only means that your city literally has no law.
    Last edited by Hawkins; January 7th, 2019 at 11:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    Could God have provided salvation to us, without the physical death of Jesus?
    Beside death by crucifixion, it's more about how God subjects Himself to open Grace (by human sinners). That's the way how God is harmed.


    Hebrews 6:6 (NIV)
    if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    I said
    Do you really want to judge God or question Him?

    [Rom 11:33-34
    [33] Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable [are] His judgments and His ways past finding out!
    [34] "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
    test [prove] all things; hold fast what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

    Since Adam who was created to NAME ALL THINGS...man was to judge to reason to chose Whom he will worship...

    CHOOSE YE THIS DAY

    Who do the crowds say He is? Who do you say He is Squeaky?

    Your obedience reveals your decision on...your fruits reveal the root you attached to...

    Do you do JUST AS THE ONE you worship? Do you LOVE AS HE LOVED YOU?

    Come let us reason...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
    Changing Law is not an option because Law stands for justification. Justification stands for God's just. It is for the justification reason that Jesus needs to be crucified twice to justify the salvation of the dead.

    ======
    God is going to build a Heaven. It's more like you are going to build a large mansion, and to invite people to live with you forever. Will you accept someone who keeps teaching your children to become drug dealers and additive to drugs? You won't. So before you accept anyone to live with you, you need to set up criteria and rules for everyone to follow if they would like to live with you. That's the nature of what Law is.

    Once rules are set, all candidates are equally judged under open witnessing. There's not much you can do even when you are God, if some candidates failed the judgment under open witnessing and in an open judgment.

    In a nutshell, those not chosen are those not "suitable" to live with God in a forever realm. God's job is to define a covenant such that they would be disqualified openly and removed. He also defines predestination/fates for those "suitable" to live with him for them to show up as who they are, such that they can be qualified openly in accordance to the covenant in place.

    To put it another way, God knows before hand who is going to be saved and who's not. However there's not much He can do if someone is openly witnessed and openly judged as the "disqualified".

    That being said. God is the God of living but not the God of the dead. If you want the dead to be saved legitimately, Jesus would have to be crucified twice (this won't happen, that's why God is not the God of the dead). If on the other hand, you would like the dead to be saved illegitimately, it only means that God is not a just God to fail to stick to His own Law and covenants. If so, God's realm is not a lawful realm.
    Changing the Law is NOT an option as it is a description of what life is like with Him...

    With Him we dont worship another god
    WIth Him we dont make idols images which are false
    With Him we USE His name YAH and not for naught or in vain
    WITH HIM WE CELEBRATE A MEMORIAL TO HIS CREATIVE WORK...you know a day of rest after six of work ourselves...
    WITH HIM we dont honor heirarchy honor our elders
    WIth HIM there is no stealing murdering LYING committing adultery or coveting

    Keeping these laws is how life was like before our need for FACTORY SETTINGS to be rebooted...when sin corrupted the original program and destroyed our default...

    Obeying Him these NOW gives us practice of what life will be like when it’s ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN...

    And we are restored to Him again...as HE originally designed...

    Fortunately our fall PROVES HE IS WORTHY OF OUR FREE WORSHIP...for what He did to restore us...

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    But but but...He could have changed the Law no?
    No, He could not not.

    Moral law is absolute.

    I mean He had to because that Law DEMANDED IT...
    I recommend you go read this:

    http://kgov.com/euthyphro

    but He could have changed it...like He did afterwards...is the claim...
    Except that wasn't an option.

    Justice demands payment for sin.

    Why not BEFORE and thus spare the torture and loss its risk...
    Because it isn't possible.

    See the above link.

    He could have argued it wasnt meant for Him...in its dispensation...you know...find another way...
    Again, not possible.

    You'd think that the God of the universe, who has existed for eternity past, who has infinite knowledge, would be able, if it were possible, to find a way around having to send His Son to die for the sin of the world. But He couldn't, and so Christ went to the Cross, willingly, and died for us, was buried, and was then raised again, so that we might have the opportunity to spend eternity with our Creator.

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    JESUS NEW TESTAMENT JUSTICE
    Matt 12:18-21
    18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen, my Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him, and He will declare justice to the Gentiles.
    19 He will not quarrel nor cry out, nor will anyone hear His voice in the streets.
    20 A bruised reed He will not break, and smoking flax He will not quench, till He sends forth justice to victory;
    21 And in His name Gentiles will trust."
    Matt 6:14-15
    14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
    15 "But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
    Luke 6:37
    37 "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
    Matt 7:2-5
    2 "For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
    3 "And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
    4 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye?
    5 "Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye.
    Rom 2:12-14
    12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
    13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
    14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
    Gal 6:2-7
    2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
    3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
    4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
    5 For each one shall bear his own load.
    6 Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches.
    7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
    Heb 8:13
    13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
    Rom 8:1-2
    1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
    Heb 2:1-5
    1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.
    2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward,
    3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
    4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
    5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels.
    (NKJ)
    xxxNew testament justice is you will receive what ever you dish out. Jesus never dished out any kind of punishment on others. He always turned the other cheek. And even on the cross Jesus was praying to God the Father to forgive us. If you forgive you will be forgiven, if you do not forgive neither will God forgive you. Jesus changed the definition of justice. Every time someone does you wrong, you have an opportunity to be forgiven for something you have done wrong to God. Because the same measure of anything you use, like mercy, forgiveness, compassion, or wrath, emotions, reveange will be measure back to you by God.Old testament justice was an eye for an eye. YOU CANT KEEP BOTH.


    Acts 8:32-33
    32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this: "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so He opened not His mouth.
    33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away, and who will declare His generation? For His life is taken from the earth."
    (NKJ)


    Matt 18:23-35
    23 "Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.
    24 "And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.
    25 "But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made.
    26 "The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, 'Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.'
    27 "Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
    28 "But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, 'Pay me what you owe!'
    29 "So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.'
    30 "And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt.
    31 "So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done.
    32 "Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.
    33 'Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?'
    34 "And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
    35 "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."
    (NKJ)

    xxx Even the old testament told us what the new justice would be when the deliverer comes

    Isa 42:1-4

    1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, my Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
    2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice, nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.
    3 A bruised reed He will not break, and smoking flax He will not quench; he will bring forth justice for truth.
    4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till He has established justice in the earth; and the coastlands shall wait for His law."
    (NKJ)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    No, He could not not.

    Moral law is absolute.



    I recommend you go read this:

    http://kgov.com/euthyphro



    Except that wasn't an option.

    Justice demands payment for sin.



    Because it isn't possible.

    See the above link.



    Again, not possible.

    You'd think that the God of the universe, who has existed for eternity past, who has infinite knowledge, would be able, if it were possible, to find a way around having to send His Son to die for the sin of the world. But He couldn't, and so Christ went to the Cross, willingly, and died for us, was buried, and was then raised again, so that we might have the opportunity to spend eternity with our Creator.
    But but but...Moral Law was for jews ONLY and abolished at cross...not even meant for us

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    But but but...Moral Law was for jews ONLY and abolished at cross...not even meant for us
    No Moral Law is how God writes the contents of Law into everyone's hearts to become our base of conscience and morality. The contents are absolute but our hearts can be hardened to have a twisted version of the contents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
    No Moral Law is how God writes the contents of Law into everyone's hearts to become our base of conscience and morality. The contents are absolute but our hearts can be hardened to have a twisted version of the contents.
    Shhhhh I know I know...just trying to fit in around here...


    LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    Could God have provided salvation to us, without the physical death of Jesus?
    Yes. REPENT.
    Hundreds of verses through out the scripture where God, the prophets, and Jesus ask us to repent.
    Nowhere God demand his own blood or the blood of his son, or any man blood to grant us salvation .
    God was angry with people who offer their children as a sacrifice, then he does it??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oleander View Post
    Yes. REPENT.
    Hundreds of verses through out the scripture where God, the prophets, and Jesus ask us to repent.
    Nowhere God demand his own blood or the blood of his son, or any man blood to grant us salvation .
    God was angry with people who offer their children as a sacrifice, then he does it??
    So... You're just going to ignore Jesus' words?

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Three times in the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus prayed:

    He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will. . . . Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done. . . . So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. - Matthew 26:39,42,44 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4&version=NKJV

    And He still went to the cross.

    Which tells us that no, there was no other way for God to save us.

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