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Thread: The Religion of the United States of America

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    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    What is Establishment?
    Government support for religion.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Government support for religion.
    Hmm.

    A person in government can support religion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Hmm.

    A person in government can support religion.
    So long as it's not in one's official capacity.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    So long as it's not in one's official capacity.
    Do you differentiate between God and religion? I live my life to the glory of God, including my speech in sharing the gospel. Mentioning God may be seen by some as religion.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    To generalize, the US supports the religion of ME. Unadulterated narcissism is oozing from US society.
    Maybe some people. But as a nation?

    America has been named as the world’s most generous nation in the world, where its citizens give the most to charity, according to a new report.

    The USA, New Zealand and Canada have the highest rate of charitable donations as a percentage gross domestic product (GDP), the Charities Aid Foundation (CAF) found.

    The UK had the fourth highest rate of charitable donations in a study of 24 nations and topped all other EU countries that were looked at.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a6849221.html
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

  6. #21
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    This is about the intent of the founders. Madison and Jefferson are the two founders most responsible for the Bill of Rights. Madison pointed out that the First Amendment was taken from Virginia's Statutes, written by Jefferson.

    It was the intent of the founders that religious freedom encompassed all faiths and even those with no faith at all.

    You could also refer to Madison's Detached Memoranda.
    Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history. (See the cases in which negatives were put by J. M. on two bills passd by Congs and his signature withheld from another. See also attempt in Kentucky for example, where it was proposed to exempt Houses of Worship from taxes.
    http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/found...ligions64.html

    We've already fallen short of the intent of the founders to separate Church and state.
    The intent was to prevent the Federal Government from interfering in religious organizations and religious practices.
    The intent was never to protect the Federal Government from "the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies".
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Hmm.

    A person in government can support religion.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    So long as it's not in one's official capacity.
    The Bill of Rights is a list of restrictions on the Federal Government, not restrictions on the citizens nor restrictions on the States.

    The Bill of Rights says that the Federal Congress shall make no law regarding religion.
    The Bill of Rights says that the States retain the powers that are not granted to the Federal Government.

    Each of the States has the power to declare an official religion of that State, but the Federal Government is to remain free of an official religion.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    The Bill of Rights is a list of restrictions on the Federal Government, not restrictions on the citizens nor restrictions on the States.

    The Bill of Rights says that the Federal Congress shall make no law regarding religion.
    The Bill of Rights says that the States retain the powers that are not granted to the Federal Government.

    Each of the States has the power to declare an official religion of that State, but the Federal Government is to remain free of an official religion.
    It sounds like if a state can have an official religion is a question.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    Over 1000 post club The Horn's Avatar
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    Christianity was pretty much the only religion in America in the founder's day . But the founders believed that every America should have the right to follow any religion, as well as the right not to follow any religion at all .
    But unfortunately, extremist Christians in America stubbornly refuse to acknowledge this fact . They say "America is a Christian nation founded on Christianity and the bible ".
    Today, America is the most religiously diverse nation in world history . The majority is still Christian , but Christians of virtually every denomination . There are also millions of Americans who follow Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and who knows how many other more obscure faiths .
    Not to mention millions of atheists and agnostics . There are now more atheists in America than there were people at the time of our founding . As well as a growing number of people known as the "nones" , or people who do not follow any religion at all but are not necessarily atheists .
    The Christian majority has been rapidly shrinking in the past two decades or so , and more and more people are abandoning Christianity because they no longer believe in it .
    If the founders could somehow come back today , they would be overjoyed to see this religious diversity . When Jews began to settle in America at an increased rate long ago ( there had been a small number for many years ) , George Washington welcomed them with open arms , saying that our government would "give to bigotry no sanction ". This was a pretty radical thing to do in the late 18th century .
    The early 19th century conflict with the Barbary pirates in north Africa was not a war against Islam per se . It was a war against piracy and to protect US citizens who were on ships in the mediterranean . The founders would have had absolutely no problem with peaceful, law-abiding Muslims settling in America , but it's only n recent years that this has happened .

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    The Bill of Rights is a list of restrictions on the Federal Government, not restrictions on the citizens nor restrictions on the States.
    Right. A citizen is entirely free as long as he is not acting in a govermental capacity. Then it's the government.

    The Bill of Rights says that the Federal Congress shall make no law regarding religion.
    The Bill of Rights says that the States retain the powers that are not granted to the Federal Government.
    But the 14th Amendment required all states to also abide by the Bill of Rights. Before that, states could legally have established religion.

    The Due Process Clause prohibits state and local governments from depriving persons of life, liberty, or property without a fair procedure. The Supreme Court has ruled this clause makes most of the Bill of Rights as applicable to the states as it is to the federal government, as well as to recognize substantive and procedural requirements that state laws must satisfy. The Equal Protection Clause requires each state to provide equal protection under the law to all people, including all non-citizens, within its jurisdiction. This clause has been the basis for many decisions rejecting irrational or unnecessary discrimination against people belonging to various groups.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourte...s_Constitution

    Each of the States has the power to declare an official religion of that State, but the Federal Government is to remain free of an official religion.
    You're about 150 years behind the curve.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    The intent was to prevent the Federal Government from interfering in religious organizations and religious practices.
    The intent was never to protect the Federal Government from "the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies".
    Madison wrote the Bill of Rights, and as you know, the Detached Memoranda, as well as Against Religious Assessments.

    So he's a better authority than you.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horn View Post
    Christianity was pretty much the only religion in America in the founder's day . But the founders believed that every America should have the right to follow any religion, as well as the right not to follow any religion at all .
    But unfortunately, extremist Christians in America stubbornly refuse to acknowledge this fact . They say "America is a Christian nation founded on Christianity and the bible ".
    Today, America is the most religiously diverse nation in world history . The majority is still Christian , but Christians of virtually every denomination . There are also millions of Americans who follow Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and who knows how many other more obscure faiths .
    Not to mention millions of atheists and agnostics . There are now more atheists in America than there were people at the time of our founding . As well as a growing number of people known as the "nones" , or people who do not follow any religion at all but are not necessarily atheists .
    The Christian majority has been rapidly shrinking in the past two decades or so , and more and more people are abandoning Christianity because they no longer believe in it .
    If the founders could somehow come back today , they would be overjoyed to see this religious diversity . When Jews began to settle in America at an increased rate long ago ( there had been a small number for many years ) , George Washington welcomed them with open arms , saying that our government would "give to bigotry no sanction ". This was a pretty radical thing to do in the late 18th century .
    The early 19th century conflict with the Barbary pirates in north Africa was not a war against Islam per se . It was a war against piracy and to protect US citizens who were on ships in the mediterranean . The founders would have had absolutely no problem with peaceful, law-abiding Muslims settling in America , but it's only n recent years that this has happened .
    Maybe diversity is desired, but I think being able to think about the Bible is to be valued, rather than someone telling you how to think.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

  16. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    But the 14th Amendment required all states to also abide by the Bill of Rights. Before that, states could legally have established religion.

    The Due Process Clause prohibits state and local governments from depriving persons of life, liberty, or property without a fair procedure. The Supreme Court has ruled this clause makes most of the Bill of Rights as applicable to the states as it is to the federal government, as well as to recognize substantive and procedural requirements that state laws must satisfy. The Equal Protection Clause requires each state to provide equal protection under the law to all people, including all non-citizens, within its jurisdiction. This clause has been the basis for many decisions rejecting irrational or unnecessary discrimination against people belonging to various groups.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourte...s_Constitution
    It sounds like some sinister people have twisted the actual text of the Fourteenth Amendment in order to invalidate the Bill of Rights.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    It sounds like some sinister people have twisted the actual text of the Fourteenth Amendment in order to invalidate the Bill of Rights.
    The Fourteenth Amendment requires states to respect our rights outlined in the Bill of Rights. Sounds like you're twisting the Fourteenth Amendment to justify violating people's rights.

    But it doesn't matter what you and I say; the Supreme Court and other federal courts have repeatedly held that the 14th Amendment means that states have to conform to the Bill of Rights as well.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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  19. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Madison wrote the Bill of Rights, and as you know, the Detached Memoranda, as well as Against Religious Assessments.

    So he's a better authority than you.
    And you are a worst authority than me.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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