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Thread: RE: Schumer"s and Cortez's Clean Energy Economy

  1. #16
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    All energy is produced/found/obtained/gathered/and or captured by using an amount of energy. Question: Which energy is "cleaner energy" Energy that is produced with a high net gain in availability? or energy that is produced with a low net gain in availablity?

    You will avoid that question like the plague!

    LOL

    When your world view is destroyed in 30 seconds perhaps its time to reevaluate your world view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tieman55 View Post


    more sustainable than the sun.
    what is more sustainable than the sun?

  3. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ok doser For Your Post:

    fool (January 9th, 2019),Kit the Coyote (January 8th, 2019),WizardofOz (January 8th, 2019)

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    Quote Originally Posted by tieman55 View Post

    You will avoid that question like the plague!
    who are you talking to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tieman55 View Post
    Question: Which energy is "cleaner energy" Energy that is produced with a high net gain in availability? or energy that is produced with a low net gain in availablity?
    explain clearly what you mean by "net gain in availability"

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    fool (January 9th, 2019)

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    Sorry if I responded to the wrong person

    I was trying to respond to the climate change post ?

    But my question is applicable to everyone,

    Which is better?

    Energy that is produced with a high net gain in availability? or energy that is produced with a low net gain in availablity?

    As far as the sun being sustainable, it is burning out. In addition, the sun is not and has likely never has been the largest source of energy for the earth.

    So the sun is irrelevant in the sustainability issue, as it is not the source of most of the fuel on earth.

    The overwhelming amount of energy on earth is from creation, not from the sun. Remember E=MC2 The sun didn't create the M in E=MC2

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    Net gain in availablity = the surplus energy after discovery and production


    I take a shovel to black mesa Utah, to a place I know of.

    I drive my truck to the place, it takes me about 4 gallons of gas.

    I eat a cheese burger on the way. I load up a ton of coal in the bed of my truck.

    One ton of coal has the energy content of 20 million BTU's

    I drive back home it takes me another 4 gallons of gas.

    The energy I used to obtain the coal is very roughly 8 x 120,000 BTU's rounded up to 1 million BTU's of available potential energy. I obtained 20 million BTU's the net gain in available energy is 19 million that is available on demand.

    The method I used to obtain the coal was the least productive imaginable so a business can do it with much much less energy.


    There is a much simpler way to look at it, that will never ever be used! If it makes a profit it is profitable.
    If it makes a profit, there is a net increase, that is what profit is, an excess of production.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tieman55 View Post
    As far as the sun being sustainable, it is burning out.
    not in the foreseeable future, maybe 5 billion years from now

    In addition, the sun is not and has likely never has been the largest source of energy for the earth.
    for the outer part that we live on, that all life depends on?

    yes, it is

    on the inside it's primarily latent heat and radioactive decay of isotopes

    So the sun is irrelevant in the sustainability issue, as it is not the source of most of the fuel on earth
    what do you have in mind when you refer to "most of the fuel on earth"?

    oil, natural gas, coal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tieman55 View Post
    Net gain in availablity = the surplus energy after discovery and production


    I take a shovel to black mesa Utah, to a place I know of.

    I drive my truck to the place, it takes me about 4 gallons of gas.

    I eat a cheese burger on the way. I load up a ton of coal in the bed of my truck.

    One ton of coal has the energy content of 20 million BTU's

    I drive back it takes me another 4 gallons of gas.

    The energy I used to obtain the coal is very roughly 8 x 120,000 BTU's rounded up to 1 million BTU's of available potential energy. I obtained 20 million BTU's the net gain in available energy is 19 million that is available on demand.

    The method I used to obtain the coal was the least productive imaginable so a business can do it with much much less energy.


    There is a much simpler way to look at it, that will never ever be used! If it makes a profit is is profitable.
    If it makes a profit, there is a net increase, that is what profit it, an excess of production.

    i step out my door and look up at the sun

    it is hot

    i soak up the heat and my body is warmed

    total energy expended: virtually nothing

    total energy gained: significant



    i fill black plastic barrels with water

    they absorb the heat of the sun during the day

    at night, they release heat into my bedroom to warm it



    and the coal you just harvested isn't energy - it has the potential to become energy, once it is burned in a furnace to heat water in a boiler to make steam to spin turbines coupled to generators to make electricity

    you're ignoring the cost of all that infrastructure

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    i step out my door and look up at the sun

    it is hot

    i soak up the heat and my body is warmed

    total energy expended: virtually nothing

    total energy gained: significant



    i fill black plastic barrels with water

    they absorb the heat of the sun during the day

    at night, they release heat into my bedroom to warm it



    and the coal you just harvested isn't energy - it has the potential to become energy, once it is burned in a furnace to heat water in a boiler to make steam to spin turbines coupled to generators to make electricity

    you're ignoring the cost of all that infrastructure

    The energy your got from your plastic barrel, could never ever ever ever produce the barrel you used to catch it.

    The only way that works is that the barrel is probably trash that you got for free and or the barrel was produced with potential energy and cheap because of fuel used to produce it. If you tried to produce the barrel with the energy you got from the sun, the barrel would never exist, never ever ever.

    And you are in error again there are two and only two types of energy, kinetic and potential, so coal is a potential energy and people who own coal sell it for a "net gain" to their bank account.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tieman55 View Post
    The energy your got from your plastic barrel, could never ever ever ever produce the barrel you used to catch it.

    The only way that works is that the barrel is probably trash that you got for free and or the barrel was produced with potential energy and cheap because of fuel used to produce it. If you tried to produce the barrel with the energy you got from the sun, the barrel would never exist, never ever ever.

    And you are in error again there are two and only two types of energy, kinetic and potential, so coal is a potential energy and people who own coal sell it for a "net gain" to their bank account.
    all matter is potential energy

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    Quote Originally Posted by tieman55 View Post
    The energy your got from your plastic barrel, could never ever ever ever produce the barrel you used to catch it.
    then you're ignoring the cost of your truck in your earlier example, and the factory that produced it, and the costs associated with your cheeseburger, including the farm (tractor, fertilizer), transportation (trucks, roads, factories, etc), store where you bought it....

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    The truck in my example is the least productive way to transport the coal to my home,

    But, own the truck for many other reasons, and would have the truck reguradless of using it for the coal.

    But, the getting the coal did reduce the life span of the truck,

    So 8 gallons of gas is about 160 miles at .20 per mile of depreciation or 32 dollars, which is about the price of 1/2 ton of coal, so I still mad e small increase in my wealth.

    I would never do what I used as an example because I can buy cheaper usable fuel much locally. I only used it to show the increase.

    If I wanted to show the increase in a gallon of diesel the equation is much more intricate but extremely easily verified. The fact that I can buy diesel fuel cheaply at the corner gas station is self evidence of a substantial increase in available energy. If there wasn't the diesel fuel would not be for sale and or available.

    Take away the subsides that wind and solar have and puff they disappear .........But is not a miracle , it is not a mystery, its not magic, it is the market.

    You and most everyone thinks that technology can do miracles, technology can't all technology is linted by the laws of physics. And you can't renew energy.

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    [QUOTE=tieman55;5304506][QUOTE=Kit the Coyote;5303905]
    Quote Originally Posted by tieman55 View Post

    Kit the Coyote: I recently saw a discussion on how a person wanted to turn his $200 a month electric bill into $7 a month.

    The above is not real, everything that is done to get the lower power bill is subsidized by government laws and the use of cheap "available" potential energy. It is a facade, it is not really happening, it is constructed just for you to believe that is happening but I can assure you it is not. Now, if I am that guy, I might very well do the exact same thing, because to him it is real, he is paying less, but he is not renewing energy and the reason he is paying less, is because someone somewhere is paying more. A good standard of leaving can "only" be achieve by cheap available potential energy.
    Since he documented the whole installation on YouTube and showed the energy use figures as measured from his meter, I'm inclined to accept his word on it. As I said before your use of "renewing" here is not correct so is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by tieman55 View Post
    Progress, yes I object to the term "renewable energy" and you can easily see that you can not renew energy, great, just coin another term that is not misleading and I will applaud you and adopt your new term.


    Kit the Coyote: more sustainable than the sun.

    2nd law of thermodynamics, Entropy, or Energy only goes one way, less available.

    So "nothing" is sustainable.
    If you believe in E=MC2 then it is impossible to use all the energy we now have available to us on this earth.
    The challenge is to grow a set to use the energy that is available to us. The major point of my post is that this won't happen because anything that works will be opposed by the ruling class, it just will be. They will double, triple, quadruple down on things that don't work, like solar before they will ever agree to solving a problem, like using the energy that is now available.
    Yes, nothing lasts forever but some things last longer than others.

    This incidentally is not an accurate statement of the second law of thermodynamics.
    The more common form is "Total entropy of an isolated system can never decrease over time." As noted the Earth is not an isolated system as it is constantly receiving energy from the Sun. The quality of energy in a system degrades over time as each energy transfer or use generates waste heat. But that is offset by an external energy source feeding the system.
    "Repubs must not allow [The President] to subvert the Constitution of the US for his own benefit & because he is unable to negotiate w/ Congress," Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    ... As I said before your use of "renewing" here is not correct so is irrelevant.
    kit - do you understand what he's trying to get at with this?
    Quote Originally Posted by tieman55 View Post
    ... you can't renew energy.

  18. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by tieman55 View Post
    ... you can't renew energy.
    hydroelectric is renewed every time it rains

    guess what drives that?

    right - solar energy

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