User Tag List

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 28 of 28

Thread: An Electoral College Vote or a General Vote?

  1. #16
    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    9,255
    Thanks
    185
    Thanked 2,967 Times in 1,978 Posts

    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    392962
    McCain didn't lose in 2008
    Barbarian checks... Yes, actually, he did.

    having another senior moment, old timer?
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

  2. #17
    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    9,255
    Thanks
    185
    Thanked 2,967 Times in 1,978 Posts

    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    392962
    Quote Originally Posted by drbrumley View Post
    Exactly.....51 different elections.....and each election has a corresponding number of votes. Under this system, the votes are the two senators and however many representatives are sent to the House of any given state.
    The two senators are independent of population. That was a compromise, maintaining a democratic government through proportional representation in the House, while retaining the rights of each separate state. While it is possible to change the electoral college to make it more equitable, giving each voter an equal say in electing a president, I do not see how, short of greatly enlarging the House, that one could do it for representative districts. How would you do that?

    So Barbarian, it is perfectly fair that this is the system.
    If you think that some voters should have a larger say in who becomes president than other voters. That doesn't seem fair to me.

    And yes the founders thought of these scenarios.
    I've been looking through notes and documents, and I don't see it. What do you have?

    But for you to call them ignorant if they hadn't anticipated this problem is absurd.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

  3. #18
    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Lakewood, Washington
    Posts
    17,155
    Thanks
    63
    Thanked 789 Times in 728 Posts

    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    119991
    Quote Originally Posted by drbrumley View Post
    It should be the electoral college. But I do think that the EC will ultimately get phased out. Which would be a shame.
    Is it in the Constitution?
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

  4. #19
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    3,361
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 1,094 Times in 764 Posts

    Mentioned
    35 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    272655
    The US has an unusual history, in that it is a federation of independent states. Both the electoral college and the makeup of the Senate reflect this.

    It may be interesting to compare this system to other countries. Here (Israel) we have a more direct democracy. We have about a dozen parties, some of which represent fairly small groups. The advantage is that more types of people get represented. There are parties that represent different economic, political, religious or ethnic views. The price is the difficulty in putting together a coalition after the election.

  5. #20
    Over 500 post club
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Under the Hill and Over the Hedge
    Posts
    658
    Thanks
    249
    Thanked 390 Times in 276 Posts

    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    132501
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Is it in the Constitution?
    It was established in the Constitution Article 2, Section 1
    Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

    (The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two persons, of whom one at least shall not lie an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chusing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representation from each State having one Vote; a quorum for this Purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two-thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot the Vice-President.)
    The process was changed in the 12th Amendment.

    The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;

    The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;


    The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President.


    The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.
    The founders were leery of pure democracy and felt that direct election of the president by popular vote would wind up with populist presidents who were beholden to the ever-changing winds of popular opinion instead of reasoned leadership. The alternatives debated was having the state legislatures choose a president or the Congress but they then felt that the president would then be too beholden to the states or Congress respectively. So they eventually settled on letting the states choose how to choose the president with the electoral college as a method to add a layer of separation.

    The states subsequently moved as close as they could in this system to a popular election of the president and we are seeing just the effects from that the founders feared.
    The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. H. L. Mencken

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Kit the Coyote For Your Post:

    Jacob (January 6th, 2019),ok doser (January 6th, 2019)

  7. #21
    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Lakewood, Washington
    Posts
    17,155
    Thanks
    63
    Thanked 789 Times in 728 Posts

    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    119991
    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    It was established in the Constitution Article 2, Section 1


    The process was changed in the 12th Amendment.



    The founders were leery of pure democracy and felt that direct election of the president by popular vote would wind up with populist presidents who were beholden to the ever-changing winds of popular opinion instead of reasoned leadership. The alternatives debated was having the state legislatures choose a president or the Congress but they then felt that the president would then be too beholden to the states or Congress respectively. So they eventually settled on letting the states choose how to choose the president with the electoral college as a method to add a layer of separation.

    The states subsequently moved as close as they could in this system to a popular election of the president and we are seeing just the effects from that the founders feared.
    Thank you for the source material. We live by the Constitution so we need to go by this. Is there a process whereby one makes it known that he is willing to be the President or can the vote be for any citizen who meets the qualifications for President? I don't think this is saying a person who "runs for President" needs to have a running mate.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

  8. #22
    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Lakewood, Washington
    Posts
    17,155
    Thanks
    63
    Thanked 789 Times in 728 Posts

    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    119991
    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    The US has an unusual history, in that it is a federation of independent states. Both the electoral college and the makeup of the Senate reflect this.

    It may be interesting to compare this system to other countries. Here (Israel) we have a more direct democracy. We have about a dozen parties, some of which represent fairly small groups. The advantage is that more types of people get represented. There are parties that represent different economic, political, religious or ethnic views. The price is the difficulty in putting together a coalition after the election.
    Interesting. Thank you.

    Does the United States of America have its Constitutional Republic?

    In Israel would we have a Theocracy if not a democracy?
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

  9. #23
    Over 500 post club
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Under the Hill and Over the Hedge
    Posts
    658
    Thanks
    249
    Thanked 390 Times in 276 Posts

    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    132501
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Thank you for the source material. We live by the Constitution so we need to go by this. Is there a process whereby one makes it known that he is willing to be the President or can the vote be for any citizen who meets the qualifications for President? I don't think this is saying a person who "runs for President" needs to have a running mate.
    The method is determined by each state though effectively the Republican and Democratic parties have effectively managed the primary process to rig things in their favor these days. Commonly now is candidates indicate their desire to run and if affiliated with a major party participate in that parties primary or caucus election system.
    The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. H. L. Mencken

  10. #24
    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Lakewood, Washington
    Posts
    17,155
    Thanks
    63
    Thanked 789 Times in 728 Posts

    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    119991
    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    The method is determined by each state though effectively the Republican and Democratic parties have effectively managed the primary process to rig things in their favor these days. Commonly now is candidates indicate their desire to run and if affiliated with a major party participate in that parties primary or caucus election system.
    I do not have a Political Party.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

  11. #25
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    3,225
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1,593 Times in 1,176 Posts

    Blog Entries
    12
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    353490
    An Electoral College Vote or a General Vote?

    For the 2nd time in less than 20 years, the Electoral College has rewarded the presidential candidate who lost the popular vote!

    It will only be when American conservatives experience this "phenomena" that their self-serving "love affair" with the Electoral College will begin to sour!

  12. #26
    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Lakewood, Washington
    Posts
    17,155
    Thanks
    63
    Thanked 789 Times in 728 Posts

    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    119991
    Quote Originally Posted by jgarden View Post
    An Electoral College Vote or a General Vote?

    For the 2nd time in less than 20 years, the Electoral College has rewarded the presidential candidate who lost the popular vote!

    It will only be when American conservatives experience this "phenomena" that their self-serving "love affair" with the Electoral College will begin to sour!
    I do not know what you are talking about. I am conservative. I do not belong to any political party. Who won, who lost, but you said candidate. My understanding is that it can be anyone. I am for the Electoral College because of the Constitution of the United States of America.

  13. #27
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    3,225
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1,593 Times in 1,176 Posts

    Blog Entries
    12
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    353490
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    I do not know what you are talking about. I am conservative. I do not belong to any political party. Who won, who lost, but you said candidate. My understanding is that it can be anyone. I am for the Electoral College because of the Constitution of the United States of America.
    The Preamble to the United States Constitution is a brief introductory statement of the Constitution's fundamental purposes and guiding principles. It states in general terms, and courts have referred to it as reliable evidence of the Founding Fathers' intentions regarding the Constitution's meaning and what they hoped the Constitution would achieve.

    US CONSTITION: PREAMBLE
    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
    ********************************************
    How does the Electoral College, by ignoring the intentions of the majority of over 3 million voters in the 2016 Election, serve the best interests of democracy in America?

    The US Constitution is not an end in itself but facilitates the means to an end which is articulated in its Preamble - just how does the Electoral College by over-riding the popular vote promote "a more perfect Union?"

  14. #28
    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Lakewood, Washington
    Posts
    17,155
    Thanks
    63
    Thanked 789 Times in 728 Posts

    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    119991
    Quote Originally Posted by jgarden View Post
    PREAMBLE: ... an introductory and expressionary statement in a document that explains the document's purpose and underlying philosophy. When applied to the opening paragraphs of a statute, it may recite historical facts pertinent to the subject of the statute. It is distinct from the long title or enacting formula of a law.

    How does the Electoral College, which ignored over the intentions of the majority by 3 million votes in the 2016 Election, serve the best interests of democracy in America?

    The Constitution facilitates the means to an end, an end which is articulated in its Preamble - just how does the Electoral College by over-riding the popular vote promote "a more perfect union?"
    Popular vote is a new idea. Apparently people like living a lie, or have unknowingly promoted one.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us