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Thread: An Electoral College Vote or a General Vote?

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    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
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    An Electoral College Vote or a General Vote?

    The vote for President. Will it continue to be an electoral college determination or will there ever be a general vote? I believe this is in regard to the United States of America House.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    Gold level Subscriber drbrumley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    The vote for President. Will it continue to be an electoral college determination or will there ever be a general vote? I believe this is in regard to the United States of America House.
    It should be the electoral college. But I do think that the EC will ultimately get phased out. Which would be a shame.
    Even in the very best of situations, voting is still an unmitigated failure. The fact that any simple majority of individuals (mob) can determine an outcome that adversely affects the minority (mob rule) is against all natural rights. In the United State today, all who vote harm others so that they might benefit. By voting, they are also sanctioning theft of private property at the point of a gun, and the redistribution of that property to those who did not earn it.

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    Gold level Subscriber drbrumley's Avatar
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    For your reading enjoyment

    Hands Off the Electoral College
    by Rep. Ron Paul, MD by Rep. Ron Paul, MD

    The intense media focus on the divide between “red” and “blue” states in the wake of the presidential election has raised new questions regarding our federal voting system. One U.S. Senator has promised to introduce legislation to abolish the Electoral College, claiming it is an anachronism that serves no good purpose in modern politics. Her stated goal is “simply to allow the popular will of the American people to be expressed every four years when we elect our president.” Many Americans agree, arguing that the man receiving the most votes should win; anything else would be unfair. In other words, they believe the American political system should operate as a direct democracy.

    The problem, of course, is that our country is not a democracy. Our nation was founded as a constitutionally limited republic, as any grammar school child knew just a few decades ago. Remember the Pledge of Allegiance: “and to the Republic for which it stands”? The Founding Fathers were concerned with liberty, not democracy. In fact, the word democracy does not appear in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. On the contrary, Article IV, section 4 of the Constitution is quite clear: “The United States shall guarantee to every state in this Union a Republican Form of Government” (emphasis added).

    The emphasis on democracy in our modern political discourse has no historical or constitutional basis. Yet we have become obsessed with democracy, as though any government action would be permissible if a majority of voters simply approved of it. Democracy has become a sacred cow, a deity which no one dares question. Democracy, we are told, is always good. But the founders created a constitutionally limited republic precisely to protect fundamental liberties from the whims of the masses, to guard against the excesses of democracy. The Electoral College likewise was created in the Constitution to guard against majority tyranny in federal elections. The President was to be elected by the states rather than the citizenry as a whole, with votes apportioned to states according to their representation in Congress. The will of the people was to be tempered by the wisdom of the Electoral College.

    By contrast, election of the President by pure popular vote totals would damage statehood. Populated areas on both coasts would have increasing influence on national elections, to the detriment of less populated southern and western states. A candidate receiving a large percentage of the popular vote in California and New York could win a national election with very little support in dozens of other states! A popular vote system simply would intensify the populist pandering which already dominates national campaigns.

    Not surprisingly, calls to abolish the Electoral College system are heard most loudly among left elites concentrated largely on the two coasts. Liberals favor a very strong centralized federal government, and have contempt for the concept of states’ rights (a contempt now shared, unfortunately, by the Republican Party). They believe in federalizing virtually every area of law, leaving states powerless to challenge directives sent down from Washington. The Electoral College system threatens liberals because it allows states to elect the president, and in many states the majority of voters still believe in limited government and the Constitution. Citizens in southern and western states in particular tend to value individual liberty, property rights, gun rights, and religious freedom, values which are abhorrent to the collectivist elites. The collectivists care about centralized power, not democracy. Their efforts to discredit the Electoral College system are an attempt to limit the voting power of pro-liberty states.
    Even in the very best of situations, voting is still an unmitigated failure. The fact that any simple majority of individuals (mob) can determine an outcome that adversely affects the minority (mob rule) is against all natural rights. In the United State today, all who vote harm others so that they might benefit. By voting, they are also sanctioning theft of private property at the point of a gun, and the redistribution of that property to those who did not earn it.

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    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Nothing in the Constitution says that voters in smaller states should have a greater say than voters in larger states. The founders just didn't consider cases where the loser of the popular vote would win in the electoral college. They don't very often, but when they do, the results have been mediocre to horrible.

    John Q. Adams
    Benjamin Harrison
    Rutherford Hayes
    George W. Bush
    Donald Trump

    Not exactly the varsity, is it?

    The American people are smarter than we sometimes think they are.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    The American people are smarter than we sometimes think they are.
    well, no

    the majority of those who voted in 2000 and 2016 preferred a president Al Gore or a president Hillary Clinton

    and the majority of those who voted in 2008 preferred an unqualified, inexperienced affirmative action president


    i'd say that's proof enough that the majority of american voters are too stupid to be allowed to vote
    Last edited by ok doser; January 5th, 2019 at 11:32 AM.

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    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Barbarian observes:
    The American people are smarter than we sometimes think they are.

    the majority of those who voted in 2000 and 2016 preferred a president Al Gore or a president Hillary Clinton
    You're making my point for me.

    and the majority of those who voted in 2008 preferred an affirmative action president
    No. Bush lost. Someone who didn't use Daddy's influence to get into college, won.

    As you just learned, the presidents who weren't the choice of most voters have been at best, mediocre, and at worst, disasters.

    I'd say that's proof enough that the majority of american voters are smarter than we sometimes think they are.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
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    My thought is that the founders intended the election of a president to be a federal process, involving the states, in which each state had an influence corresponding to its population. The problem is, the voters of very small states get a disproportionate say, compared to the voters of larger states.

    A system of electoral votes that more accurately reflected the population of each state would be sufficient to prevent most of the cases where the loser actually got more electoral votes. So increase the number of votes to the point that the relative populations of each state were accurately represented.

    And most of the problem goes away.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    ...and the majority of those who voted in 2008 preferred an unqualified, inexperienced affirmative action president..
    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    No. Bush lost.
    bush didn't lose in 2008


    having another senior moment, old timer?

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    Gold level Subscriber drbrumley's Avatar
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    So take the Presidential election as an example and riddle me this....

    How many elections are there that day? Just the presidential...
    Even in the very best of situations, voting is still an unmitigated failure. The fact that any simple majority of individuals (mob) can determine an outcome that adversely affects the minority (mob rule) is against all natural rights. In the United State today, all who vote harm others so that they might benefit. By voting, they are also sanctioning theft of private property at the point of a gun, and the redistribution of that property to those who did not earn it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drbrumley View Post
    How many elections are there that day? Just the presidential...
    fifty states, and the territories?

    Puerto rico

    something in the pacific

    others?

    DC?

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    drbrumley (January 5th, 2019)

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    ok, i peeked - no territories for prez

    DC?

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to ok doser For Your Post:

    drbrumley (January 5th, 2019)

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    apparently, yes DC

    no for the three pacific territories, USVI and PR

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    Exactly.....51 different elections.....and each election has a corresponding number of votes. Under this system, the votes are the two senators and however many representatives are sent to the House of any given state.

    So Barbarian, it is perfectly fair that this is the system. And yes the founders thought of these scenarios....to call them ignorant is absurd.
    Even in the very best of situations, voting is still an unmitigated failure. The fact that any simple majority of individuals (mob) can determine an outcome that adversely affects the minority (mob rule) is against all natural rights. In the United State today, all who vote harm others so that they might benefit. By voting, they are also sanctioning theft of private property at the point of a gun, and the redistribution of that property to those who did not earn it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drbrumley View Post

    So Barbarian, it is perfectly fair that this is the system. And yes the founders thought of these scenarios....to call them ignorant is absurd.

    now, be fair

    he thinks Bush lost in 2008

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    The Electoral College is part of the Constitution, it's not something that can go away easily. As long as Republicans have their electorates locked and maintain at least a near-majority in Congress, they'll forever keep it.

    But it doesn't matter much anyway because from what I've come to learn about it is that states will just further divide without the EC and the difference would become trivial.
    One of the key good things that the EC does is provide for fairer representation of interests so that the country doesn't tilt too far toward one end. The Founders were really big on matters of balance and resistance concerning gov't.

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