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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
    No, you can't just get to a conclusion by ignoring the Jewish history as a whole and making up the concepts themselves out of context.

    Here's how 1st century Jewish historian Josephus tried to explain what Hades is to the Greeks.



    An Extract Out of Josephus’ Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades:

    1. Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things they see, and rejoice in the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners.

    2. In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment, as having been the causes of defilement; while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined.


    The following verses are rather based off the concepts embedded above, rather than standing alone by themselves only in the NT.

    Matthew 25:41 (NIV2011)
    Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    2 Peter 2:4 (NIV2011)
    For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;
    I just simple pointed out the FACT... that the word Hell is slowly being removed from our modern translations... How is that out of context?

    So... tell me about hell....

    The wages of Sin is death? Right?


    ADAM AND EVE WERE NEVER WARNED BY GOD OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
    "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall SURELY DIE" (Gen. 2:17).
    The wages for eating the forbidden fruit was "you shall surely die." And: In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return unto the ground [not be turned into a terrorists hellhole of endless torture in some pagan hell]: for out of it [the ground] were you taken; for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return" (Gen. 3:19). Death began immediately. Notice a better translation of Gen. 2:17: "…to die shall you BE DYING" (Concordant Old Testament).

    CAIN WAS NEVER WARNED BY GOD OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
    Notice very carefully God’s conversation with Cain:
    "But unto Cain and to his offering He [God] had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the Lord said unto Cain, Why are you wroth? And why is your countenance fallen? If you do well, shall you not be accepted? And if you do not well, SIN lies at the door. And unto you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him" (Gen. 4:5-7).
    God warned Cain that if he did not do well, that sin would be at his door. But did God say "endless torment and punishment would be at his door?" No.
    "And Cain talked with Abel, his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and slew him. And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel your brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother’s keeper? And He said, What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries unto Me from the ground.
    And now are you cursed from the earth which has opened her mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand: When you till the ground it shall not henceforth yield unto you her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shall you be in the earth" (Verses 8-12).

    Did God threaten Cain with "endless punishment in some subterranean hellhole of torture in fire?" No. But notice Cain’s reply?

    "And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, you have driven me out this day from the face of the earth, and from Your face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth: and it shall come to pass, that every one [any one] that finds me shall slay me" (Verse 13-14).
    What? My punishment is greater than I can bear? If Cain thought being a fugitive and vagabond and having poor crops was greater than he could bear, what pray tell would he have thought had God told him that he would be punished for all eternity in some hellish pit of fire? Did God fail to tell Cain about the "endless torture" because He was afraid it would be too much for Cain to psychologically handle? Did God fail to inform Cain of his coming endless punishment because He was afraid it might discourage him, or some other unfathomable fiendish foolishness? We are not finished with this account of Cain yet.

    "And the Lord said unto him, Therefore, whosoever slays Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him" (Verse 15).

    Cain died, just as his parents (Adam and Eve) died. But there is no punishment in death. Cain’s "punishment" was here on this earth while Cain was still alive, not after. And likewise, anyone who found and killed Cain would have punishment on this earth while they were still alive, "seven times greater," than that of Cain.

    NO ONE BEFORE THE FLOOD WAS WARNED OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT

    "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually… And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and everything that is in the earth shall DIE" (Gen. 6:5 & 17).
    All mankind are said to be only evil continually. That’s a lot of evil. And what does God say their punishment for all this evil will be? They shall die. Punished endlessly? No, they "shall die." Do we think that God lied to the whole world? Do we think that God said, "shall die," but secretly meant: "punished endlessly?" Ask your pastor if he has an answer to this Christian enigma?
    It apparently took a hundred years to build the ark, and so for a hundred years Noah warned the world that God would kill them for their gross sins. But not one word that God would punish them endlessly after they died:
    "All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, DIED" (Gen. 7:22).

    There are thousands and thousands and thousands of words in the Old Testament Scriptures, so why isn’t there one word warning us that unrepentant wicked people will be sentenced to an eternity of torture in real fire? Why? The books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy have 186 combined chapters. So why couldn’t at least one of these 186 chapters contain at least one verse which warns of the horrible eternal torture for most of the human race? Why? Prov. 6:6 admonishes, "Go to the ANT you sluggard, consider her ways and be wise." Does any serious-mined human on this planet believe that it is more important to know the work habits of ants, than to know the eternal destiny of billions and billions of human beings?
    Does anyone hear what I am saying? Does anyone truly see what the Scriptures quoted here say? Does anyone see "eternal punishment" in even one of them? Yet the Christian Church assures us that this punishment is there even if it is not seen and not stated.

    SODOM AND GOMORRAH WERE NEVER WARNED BY GOD OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT

    Were any of these people told or warned that not only would they die for their sins, but that they would also be punished in death, endlessly? No, of course not.

    Every generation since Adam and Noah has witnessed their loved ones either dying or being killed. Life is short, and everyone knows it and is very conscious of it:
    "For the living know that they shall die…" (Ecc. 9:5a).
    But Solomon and the Kingdom of Israel knew more than just the fact that they would all die one day. They also knew something that few theologians, few pastors, few Christians on earth know and believe, which is:
    "…but the dead know not anything" (Ecc. 9:5b).

    Is there an orthodox theologian alive, who believes this divinely inspired Scripture?
    Likewise, in the New Testament, we are told emphatically that:
    "For the wages of sin is DEATH…" (Rom. 6:23).
    Yet millions believe many Scriptures contradict Rom. 6:23. How can anyone put their faith in a book that they believe contradicts itself? If the theologians and your pastors are correct in teaching that "For the wages of sin is eternal life in the lake of fire," how do they account for Rom. 6:23 which clearly states: "For the wages of sin is death?"

    Why do you try to add to the wages of Sin? Do you not believe Paul...

    1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

    Don't focus on what your taught to believe by the traditions of men... Seek the truth...


    Paul
    From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth,
    From the laziness that is content with half-truths,
    From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
    Oh God of Truth, deliver us.

    ~ Ancient Prayer

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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pierac View Post
    I just simple pointed out the FACT... that the word Hell is slowly being removed from our modern translations... How is that out of context?
    This is not true. The word hell has never been edited out of the Bible. It remains the same because it can be reconciled against by using tools such as Strong dictionary and etc. However you may say that in order not to offend today's people, some translations may try to make it less obvious.

    2 Timothy 4:3 (NIV2011)
    For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pierac View Post
    The word Hadees occurs but eleven times in the New Testament, and is translated Hell ten times, and grave once. The word is from a, not, and eulo, to see, and means concealed, invisible. It has exactly the same meaning as Sheol, literally the grave, or death, and figuratively destruction, downfall, calamity, or punishment in this world, with no intimation whatever of torment or punishment beyond the grave.
    geenna appears twelve times.

    Such is the meaning in every passage in the Old Testament containing the word Sheol or Hadees, whether translated Hell, grave or pit. Such is the invariable meaning of Hadees in the New Testament. Says the "Emphatic Diaglott:" "To translate Hadees by the word Hell as it is done ten times out of eleven in the New Testament, is very improper, unless it has the Saxon meaning of helan, to cover, attached to it. The primitive signification of Hell, only denoting what was secret or concealed, perfectly corresponds with the Greek term Hadees and its equivalent Sheol, but the theological definition given to it at the present day by no means expresses it." The Greek Septuagint, which our Lord used when he read or quoted from the Old Testament, gives Hadees as the exact equivalent of the Hebrew Sheol, and when the Savior, or his apostles, use the word, they must mean the same as it meant in the Old Testament. When Hadees is used in the New Testament, we must understand it just as we do (Sheol or Hadees) in the Old Testament.
    I suppose in the Hebrew there is more than sheol, but that is the important word.
    Dr. George Campbell, a celebrated critic, says that "Sheol signifies the state of the dead in general, without regard to the goodness or badness of the persons, their happiness or misery."…
    We now consider the word Tartarus: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to Hell (Tartarus), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment." II Peter 2:4. The word in the Greek is Tartarus, or rather it is a very from that noun. "Cast down to hell" should be tartarused, (tartarosas). The Greeks held Tartarus, says Anthon, in his Classical Dictionary to be "the fabled place of punishment in the lower world." Besides, these angels are not to be detained always in Tartarus, they are to be released. The language is, "delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment." When their judgment comes, they emerge from duress. They only remain in Tartarus "unto judgment." This word is used only once in the Bible.
    It is found once, yes.
    "The word Gehenna is derived, as all agree, from the Hebrew words ge hinnom; which, in process of time, passing into other languages, assumed diverse forms; e.g., Chaldee Gehennom, Arabic Gahannam, Greek Gehenna.
    Interesting.
    The valley of Hinnom is part of the pleasant wadi or valley, which bounds Jerusalem on the south. Josh. 15:8; 18:6. Here, in ancient times and under some of the idolatrous kings, the worship of Moloch, the horrid idol-god of the Ammonites, was practiced. To this idol, children were offered in sacrifice. II Kings 23:10; Ezek. 23:37, 39; II Chron. 28:3; Lev. 28:21; 20:2. If we may credit the Rabbins, the head of the idol was like that of an ox; while the rest of the body resembled that of a man. It was hollow within; and being heated by fire, children were laid in its arms and were literally roasted alive. We cannot wonder, then at the severe terms in which the worship of Moloch is everywhere denounced in the Scriptures. Nor can we wonder that the place itself should have been called Tophet, i.e., abomination, detestation, (from toph, to vomit with loathing)." Jer. 8:32; 19:6; II Kings 23:10; Ezek. 23:36, 39.
    "After these sacrifices had ceased, the place was desecrated, and made one of loathing and horror. The pious king Josiah caused it to be polluted, i.e., he caused to be carried there the filth of the city of Jerusalem. It would seem that the custom of desecrating this place thus happily begun, was continued in after ages down to the period when our Savior was on earth. Perpetual fires were kept up in order to consume the rubbish which was deposited there. And as the same rubbish would breed worms, (for so all putrefying meat does of course), therefore came the expression, 'Where the worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.' " Stuart's Exegetical Ess., pp. 140-141.
    I am not sure what this is about. The valley of Hinnom.
    The word should have been left untranslated as it is in some versions of the Bible, and it would not be misunderstood. It was not misunderstood by the Jews to whom Jesus addressed it. Walter Balfour well says: "What meaning would the Jews who were familiar with this word, and knew it to signify the valley of Hinnom, be likely to attach to it when they heard it used by our Lord? Would they, contrary to all former usage, transfer its meaning from a place with whose locality and history they had been familiar from their infancy, to a place of misery in another world? This conclusion is certainly inadmissible. By what rule of interpretation, then, can we arrive at the conclusion that this word means a place of misery and death?"
    One must also note... the term Hell is used more in the 1611 KJV bible 22 in verses.. 23 in your modern KJV... much more than it is used in your modern version we have today... The Nasb has only 13 verses and the ESV and NIV only 14 verses... Hell has been slowly removed with each new translation... Why?
    Interesting. Not the removed part. But the occurrences in the different translations. The word Hades appears ten times.

    Matthew 11:23 NASB - "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.

    Matthew 16:18 NASB - "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

    Luke 10:15 NASB - "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!

    Luke 16:23 NASB - "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

    Acts 2:27 NASB - BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.

    Acts 2:31 NASB - he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.

    Revelation 1:18 NASB - and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

    Revelation 6:8 NASB - I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.

    Revelation 20:13 NASB - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds.

    Revelation 20:14 NASB - Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
    I think you know why...


    Paul
    I don't know why. Sorry.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pierac View Post
    I just simple pointed out the FACT... that the word Hell is slowly being removed from our modern translations... How is that out of context?

    So... tell me about hell....

    The wages of Sin is death? Right?


    ADAM AND EVE WERE NEVER WARNED BY GOD OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
    "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall SURELY DIE" (Gen. 2:17).
    The wages for eating the forbidden fruit was "you shall surely die." And: In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return unto the ground [not be turned into a terrorists hellhole of endless torture in some pagan hell]: for out of it [the ground] were you taken; for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return" (Gen. 3:19). Death began immediately. Notice a better translation of Gen. 2:17: "…to die shall you BE DYING" (Concordant Old Testament).

    CAIN WAS NEVER WARNED BY GOD OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
    Notice very carefully God’s conversation with Cain:
    "But unto Cain and to his offering He [God] had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the Lord said unto Cain, Why are you wroth? And why is your countenance fallen? If you do well, shall you not be accepted? And if you do not well, SIN lies at the door. And unto you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him" (Gen. 4:5-7).
    God warned Cain that if he did not do well, that sin would be at his door. But did God say "endless torment and punishment would be at his door?" No.
    "And Cain talked with Abel, his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and slew him. And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel your brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother’s keeper? And He said, What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries unto Me from the ground.
    And now are you cursed from the earth which has opened her mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand: When you till the ground it shall not henceforth yield unto you her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shall you be in the earth" (Verses 8-12).

    Did God threaten Cain with "endless punishment in some subterranean hellhole of torture in fire?" No. But notice Cain’s reply?

    "And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, you have driven me out this day from the face of the earth, and from Your face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth: and it shall come to pass, that every one [any one] that finds me shall slay me" (Verse 13-14).
    What? My punishment is greater than I can bear? If Cain thought being a fugitive and vagabond and having poor crops was greater than he could bear, what pray tell would he have thought had God told him that he would be punished for all eternity in some hellish pit of fire? Did God fail to tell Cain about the "endless torture" because He was afraid it would be too much for Cain to psychologically handle? Did God fail to inform Cain of his coming endless punishment because He was afraid it might discourage him, or some other unfathomable fiendish foolishness? We are not finished with this account of Cain yet.

    "And the Lord said unto him, Therefore, whosoever slays Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him" (Verse 15).

    Cain died, just as his parents (Adam and Eve) died. But there is no punishment in death. Cain’s "punishment" was here on this earth while Cain was still alive, not after. And likewise, anyone who found and killed Cain would have punishment on this earth while they were still alive, "seven times greater," than that of Cain.

    NO ONE BEFORE THE FLOOD WAS WARNED OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT

    "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually… And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and everything that is in the earth shall DIE" (Gen. 6:5 & 17).
    All mankind are said to be only evil continually. That’s a lot of evil. And what does God say their punishment for all this evil will be? They shall die. Punished endlessly? No, they "shall die." Do we think that God lied to the whole world? Do we think that God said, "shall die," but secretly meant: "punished endlessly?" Ask your pastor if he has an answer to this Christian enigma?
    It apparently took a hundred years to build the ark, and so for a hundred years Noah warned the world that God would kill them for their gross sins. But not one word that God would punish them endlessly after they died:
    "All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, DIED" (Gen. 7:22).

    There are thousands and thousands and thousands of words in the Old Testament Scriptures, so why isn’t there one word warning us that unrepentant wicked people will be sentenced to an eternity of torture in real fire? Why? The books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy have 186 combined chapters. So why couldn’t at least one of these 186 chapters contain at least one verse which warns of the horrible eternal torture for most of the human race? Why? Prov. 6:6 admonishes, "Go to the ANT you sluggard, consider her ways and be wise." Does any serious-mined human on this planet believe that it is more important to know the work habits of ants, than to know the eternal destiny of billions and billions of human beings?
    Does anyone hear what I am saying? Does anyone truly see what the Scriptures quoted here say? Does anyone see "eternal punishment" in even one of them? Yet the Christian Church assures us that this punishment is there even if it is not seen and not stated.

    SODOM AND GOMORRAH WERE NEVER WARNED BY GOD OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT

    Were any of these people told or warned that not only would they die for their sins, but that they would also be punished in death, endlessly? No, of course not.

    Every generation since Adam and Noah has witnessed their loved ones either dying or being killed. Life is short, and everyone knows it and is very conscious of it:
    "For the living know that they shall die…" (Ecc. 9:5a).
    But Solomon and the Kingdom of Israel knew more than just the fact that they would all die one day. They also knew something that few theologians, few pastors, few Christians on earth know and believe, which is:
    "…but the dead know not anything" (Ecc. 9:5b).

    Is there an orthodox theologian alive, who believes this divinely inspired Scripture?
    Likewise, in the New Testament, we are told emphatically that:
    "For the wages of sin is DEATH…" (Rom. 6:23).
    Yet millions believe many Scriptures contradict Rom. 6:23. How can anyone put their faith in a book that they believe contradicts itself? If the theologians and your pastors are correct in teaching that "For the wages of sin is eternal life in the lake of fire," how do they account for Rom. 6:23 which clearly states: "For the wages of sin is death?"

    Why do you try to add to the wages of Sin? Do you not believe Paul...

    1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

    Don't focus on what your taught to believe by the traditions of men... Seek the truth...


    Paul
    HalleluYah...Well said...

    Indeed why would Yahushua lie to His disciples or Martha about the death of dear Lazarus...why not tell the truth?

    Oh wait He did...Lazarus was asleep...actually...dead...not a peep of Abraham’s bosom or hell fires...

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post

    Oh well...no end to what is added and removed from the Word...
    you don't care what the word of God says
    you mock the word of God
    Very hard soil here...cement even...they HAVE to have their hell its “immortality” that first deception that no one surely dies...so much more error hangs on it
    There is
    1 spiritual death Mat_8:22
    2 physical death Mat 8:22
    3 there is alive yet dead Rev 20:12
    4 death as a place Rev 20:13
    5 death as a person Rev 6:8

    As a rich man with five sons and yet unamed ironically...he would see a good opportunity and seize it.
    Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers

    Asking for a drop of water to cool his scorched tongue is AFTER he assessed it was Abraham...how did he know that?
    Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
    And from a distance...that it was Lazarus...and such a distance no one could cross the chasm...yet they held a conversation
    mile deep 40' wide, no problem

    ...and not shouting above the roar of eternal fires...maybe magic flames which don’t consume are silent too...
    here on earth we have a silent fire .

    Rich man then asks to go warn his brothers so either man can be resurrected by One other than Yah almighty or can visit from the realm of the dead...an abomination if so believed
    Luk 16:27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him(Lazarus) to my father's house—



    Abraham concludes one risen from the dead can NOT PERSUADE...he lied then? Odd lie too seeing as his HOPE was in ONE THAT WOULD PERSUADE HAVING RISEN FROM THE DEAD...
    you are not persuaded that there is a hell like Luke 16:19-31 describes

    Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'

    Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

    Had Yahushua really re-told this famous “Marxist” folktale as a doctrinal teaching on the state of the dead
    Karl Marx lived 5 May 1818 to 14 March 1883

    Spoiler
    He was quite mean delaying His resurrecting of His real friend Lazarus as poor dude was either at bliss on Abraham’s bosom too (I mean if the other Lazarus would make room for him) or poor Lazarus was being scorched for 4 days...two purposely delayed

    Obviously Yahushua didn’t believe His supposed own teaching on hell because He tells His disciples Lazarus SLEEPS...and then finally clarifies he is dead...NOT he is with Abraham or getting his tongue scorched but SLEEPS

    Dear distraught sister Martha knows of death and resurrection on the Last Day but Yahushua says NOTHING of Lazarus in comfort on Abraham’s bosom...


    No gospel of Lazarus either about His joyous time with Abraham and the other saints resting there NOR of scorching flames to warn the living

    Because Lazarus slept...was dead...
    ignorance

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    you don't care what the word of God says
    you mock the word of God
    If this parable folktale illustration story were a true doctrine then Yahushua lied when He said to the disciples His friend Lazarus was asleep actually dead...because and according to you he was either in the lap of Abraham or being scorched...

    There is
    1 spiritual death Mat_8:22
    2 physical death Mat 8:22
    btw physically dead people dont bury other physically dead people...
    3 there is alive yet dead Rev 20:12
    yup John saw in a vision another illustration of an event yet to occur when those that were dead are resurrected to hear their judgement...

    4 death as a place Rev 20:13
    yup again in a vision a illustration etc for teaching purposes...or you believe there is an literal biological physical dragon or seven headed beast four winged or four horse...


    5 death as a person Rev 6:8
    yes like the other 3 horsemen are also literal physical biological or for teaching purposes



    Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers
    unnamed but real historical people forgotten? And that makes the other parables without names real too yes...actual occurrences...or teaching tools


    Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
    again did he know Abraham? Did Abraham wear a name tag or neon light with arrow to bosom?

    mile deep 40' wide, no problem
    mile deep only? Or that much



    here on earth we have a silent fire .
    it’s hell too



    Luk 16:27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him(Lazarus) to my father's house—
    communication with the dead or former dead is an abomination...




    you are not persuaded that there is a hell like Luke 16:19-31 describes
    because Moses nor the prophets taught life after death...ask the sadduccees


    warn the brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'

    Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"
    So Abraham believes the DBR is in vain as One rose from the dead is NOT convincing...



    Karl Marx lived 5 May 1818 to 14 March 1883
    he was not the first or only person to get poor people excited about rich people’s fortune reversed...


    ignorance
    if His friend was on the bosom of Abraham He would have said that...He was all about bringing comfort and that would have brought comfort...instead He told the truth...His friend was asleep...ok dead...

    Luke the only gospel we read this folktale telling ends the life of Stephen in his book of Acts:

    “While they were stoning him, Stephen appealed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60Falling on his knees, he cried out in a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

    NOT “he was carried to Abraham's bosom” Good time to do so and comforting IF that happened or was indeed truly possible...

    The comfort now is IN HIM is life everlasting...or nothing...as it was before He created life...outside of Whom there is NONE...
    Last edited by clefty; January 5th, 2019 at 09:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls:



    wrong
    Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'



    no fire is not symbolic of complete destruction.

    fire before judgement day Luk 16:24 not completely destroying anyone

    fire after judgement day

    Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
    Why don't you learn to read and translate the ancient Greek and Hebrew languages like the very capable translators of the NWT did, and everyone here will consider you to be the expert you think you are.

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    The promotion of Hell as an eternal place of torture is an insult to God the Father. People teach hell because they have no compelling truth to teach. I question the sincerity of someone who claims to love God because they fear he will torture them for an eternity if they don't. No such God exists. Gehenna was the local trash pit/valley south of the City of David. I was there in April, its a lovely park today.

    "Mortal man was never the property of the archdeceivers. Jesus did not die to ransom man from the clutch of the apostate rulers and fallen princes of the spheres. The Father in heaven never conceived of such crass injustice as damning a mortal soul because of the evil doing of his ancestors."UB

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caino View Post
    The promotion of Hell as an eternal place of torture is an insult to God the Father. People teach hell because they have no compelling truth to teach. I question the sincerity of someone who claims to love God because they fear he will torture them for an eternity if they don't. No such God exists. Gehenna was the local trash pit/valley south of the City of David. I was there in April, its a lovely park today.
    Thanks for reasoning on the scriptures!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodeneye View Post
    Why don't you learn to read and translate the ancient Greek and Hebrew languages like the very capable translators of the NWT did, and everyone here will consider you to be the expert you think you are.

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    one cultist

    Quote Originally Posted by Caino View Post
    The promotion of Hell as an eternal place of torture is an insult to God the Father. People teach hell because they have no compelling truth to teach. I question the sincerity of someone who claims to love God because they fear he will torture them for an eternity if they don't. No such God exists. Gehenna was the local trash pit/valley south of the City of David. I was there in April, its a lovely park today.
    followed by a second cultist

    & they both agree with Luk 16:28-31

    they will not be persuaded there is a hell

    Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them,
    lest they also come into this place of torment.'

    Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets,
    neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"



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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post

    Luk 16:28 ‘for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them,
    lest they also come into this place of torment.’
    Let’s just say that this folktale allows for Abraham releasing Lazarus back to the living...

    If he returns in spirit form only that is speaking with the dead...an abomination

    If he returns in bodily form his testimony might end up with all the other testimonies from beyond the grave from others that were resurrected...top sellers I would imagine...

    Oh wait there WERN’T any...NOT ONE TESTIMONY FROM A RESURRECTD PERSON

    Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets,
    neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"
    Moses and the Prophets did not warn against tongues getting scorched ok? Ask the Sadducees who did not believe in an afterlife not even in a resurrection...

    Oh wait there was a testimony of One resurrected...so Abraham lied about His being able convince anyone...I mean that One resurrected was able to convince someone yes?

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    In the hell cult, the God of your conception creates finite children, allows an invisible Satan to fool them, even working with Satan to mess with their heads, then raises his children from the dead and tortures them for an eternity? Is it any wonder that sooooo many people don't believe in your idea of God?

    If such a God existed, each day of eternal torture would be proof that he is neither good nor Love.

    "Mortal man was never the property of the archdeceivers. Jesus did not die to ransom man from the clutch of the apostate rulers and fallen princes of the spheres. The Father in heaven never conceived of such crass injustice as damning a mortal soul because of the evil doing of his ancestors."UB

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caino View Post
    In the hell cult, the God of your conception creates finite children, allows an invisible Satan to fool them, even working with Satan to mess with their heads, then raises his children from the dead and tortures them for an eternity? Is it any wonder that sooooo many people don't believe in your idea of God?

    If such a God existed, each day of eternal torture would be proof that he is neither good nor Love.
    Why are you being accused by way2go for being cultist?

    As for hell yes no surprise that this construct was developed in a time when the church in the wilderness was becoming less jewish for PR reasons...divorcing itself from OT teaching and tradition to market itself to a new demographic hell was an important tool to bring ‘em in...during a time most were illiterate and denied access to scripture themselves to see if these new traditions followed scripture...

    What once was the gospel which brought the goyim in to pack the synagogues to hear Moses read every Sabbath (that being that Someone resurrected) was slowly replaced with “either you do as we tell you or you and your family go to purgatory if you are kinda good and straight to hell if you are bad”(bad being works you didnt do for them...works they made up like you not assisting in the Sunday Mass, worshipping a mystery triune god, used images for worship...etc et al)

    After the first century...much of this new church did not follow the Way but continued the jewish false witness that Yahushua was taught changing the customs and traditions and established new laws...this indeed was a different counterfeit cultist way2go

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caino View Post
    In the hell cult, the God of your conception creates finite children, allows an invisible Satan to fool them, even working with Satan to mess with their heads, then raises his children from the dead and tortures them for an eternity? Is it any wonder that sooooo many people don't believe in your idea of God?

    If such a God existed, each day of eternal torture would be proof that he is neither good nor Love.
    Well said! The God of the Bible can and does destroy individuals who disobey, but He has never tortured anyone, good or bad. The lake of fire means eternal destruction and those in it suffer because they realize that they had the opportunity to accept the truth but refused it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    Let’s just say that this folktale allows for Abraham releasing Lazarus back to the living...

    If he returns in spirit form only that is speaking with the dead...an abomination

    If he returns in bodily form his testimony might end up with all the other testimonies from beyond the grave from others that were resurrected...top sellers I would imagine...

    Oh wait there WERN’T any...NOT ONE TESTIMONY FROM A RESURRECTD PERSON
    Jesus rose from the dead & his book is the best selling book of all time

    Moses and the Prophets did not warn against tongues getting scorched ok? Ask the Sadducees who did not believe in an afterlife not even in a resurrection...
    the rich man never found evidence either , look where he wound up.


    Oh wait there was a testimony of One resurrected...so Abraham lied about His being able convince anyone...I mean that One resurrected was able to convince someone yes?
    you just said you can't find anything in Moses & the Prophets
    and Jesus did not persuade you that there is a hell.
    which is what Abraham said you not be convinced of a place of torment.

    Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them,
    lest they also come into this place of torment.'

    Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets,
    neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

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