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    Quote Originally Posted by woodeneye View Post
    Your explanation is at odds with this scripture. So, do you alter your belief, or throw out this verse? You can't have it both ways.
    Roman's 6:23
    For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord

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    There is
    1 spiritual death Mat_8:22
    2 physical death Mat 8:22
    3 there is alive yet dead Rev 20:12
    4 death as a place Rev 20:13
    5 death as a person Rev 6:8

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    There is
    1 spiritual death Mat_8:22
    2 physical death Mat 8:22
    3 there is alive yet dead Rev 20:12
    4 death as a place Rev 20:13
    5 death as a person Rev 6:8
    Deflection never answers the question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcon View Post
    Yes, Hades is a place; it's the common Grave of mankind.
    properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls:


    There is no fire.
    wrong
    Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'

    Fire is symbolic of complete destruction. Since people can be resurrected from the dead, or Hades, we have no reason to believe that anyone who has died, has been completely destroyed.

    no fire is not symbolic of complete destruction.

    fire before judgement day Luk 16:24 not completely destroying anyone

    fire after judgement day

    Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodeneye View Post
    Deflection never answers the question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    yes I think this is very serious

    People being separated from God for eternity
    in a fire that does not consume, very serious .

    so serious the rich man's next thought was of his family
    to warn them


    Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
    ...
    Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


    what about you , do you believe Moses and the prophets about hell?
    do you believe Jesus the one risen from the dead about hell?
    First off, how can you think it's a literal fire if someone who is fully able to feel the heat could speak as such and would ask for something as ineffectual as a drop of water?

    Jesus 'descended into hell' didn't He? Was it full of people on fire?

    I don't expect you to think particularly deeply on the subject until you can think outside of the manacles of fundamentalist doctrine on the subject to be fair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls:



    wrong
    Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'



    no fire is not symbolic of complete destruction.

    fire before judgement day Luk 16:24 not completely destroying anyone

    fire after judgement day

    Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
    In a very short time, Jesus and his Father will decide enough is enough and selectively destroy those who have refused to to obey them. This will not be cruel, it shows their love for the rest of us who have shown our loyalty to them and their Kingdom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    First off, how can you think it's a literal fire if someone who is fully able to feel the heat could speak as such and would ask for something as ineffectual as a drop of water?
    first off, not a natural fire
    second , the rich man started with a small compromise that would hopefully lead to larger or more compromises .
    Jesus 'descended into hell' didn't He? Was it full of people on fire?
    Jesus went to Abraham's side.
    Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,


    I don't expect you to think particularly deeply on the subject until you can think outside of the manacles of fundamentalist doctrine on the subject to be fair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    first off, not a natural fire
    second , the rich man started with a small compromise that would hopefully lead to larger or more compromises .

    Jesus went to Abraham's side.
    Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,



    Well, again, no real point in taking things further until you can think outside of fundamentalism then really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodeneye View Post
    In a very short time,
    JW's have a new date ?

    Jesus and his Father
    Jesus is God





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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Well, again, no real point in taking things further until you can think outside of fundamentalism then really.


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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    Same date it's always been ;unknown. We've seen the signs for many years, now they're more prevalent than ever. Instead of ridiculing us for sounding the alarm, maybe you should investigate WHY we've been sounding it for so long. We care about all of mankind, yes, even you, and don't want to see anyone destroyed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    First off, how can you think it's a literal fire if someone who is fully able to feel the heat could speak as such and would ask for something as ineffectual as a drop of water?

    Jesus 'descended into hell' didn't He? Was it full of people on fire?

    I don't expect you to think particularly deeply on the subject until you can think outside of the manacles of fundamentalist doctrine on the subject to be fair.
    Very hard soil here...cement even...they HAVE to have their hell its “immortality” that first deception that no one surely dies...so much more error hangs on it

    As a rich man with five sons and yet unamed ironically...he would see a good opportunity and seize it.

    Asking for a drop of water to cool his scorched tongue is AFTER he assessed it was Abraham...how did he know that? And from a distance...that it was Lazarus...and such a distance no one could cross the chasm...yet they held a conversation...and not shouting above the roar of eternal fires...maybe magic flames which don’t consume are silent too...

    Rich man then asks to go warn his brothers so either man can be resurrected by One other than Yah almighty or can visit from the realm of the dead...an abomination if so believed

    Abraham concludes one risen from the dead can NOT PERSUADE...he lied then? Odd lie too seeing as his HOPE was in ONE THAT WOULD PERSUADE HAVING RISEN FROM THE DEAD...

    Oh well...no end to what is added and removed from the Word...

    Had Yahushua really re-told this famous “Marxist” folktale as a doctrinal teaching on the state of the dead

    He was quite mean delaying His resurrecting of His real friend Lazarus as poor dude was either at bliss on Abraham’s bosom too (I mean if the other Lazarus would make room for him) or poor Lazarus was being scorched for 4 days...two purposely delayed

    Obviously Yahushua didn’t believe His supposed own teaching on hell because He tells His disciples Lazarus SLEEPS...and then finally clarifies he is dead...NOT he is with Abraham or getting his tongue scorched but SLEEPS

    Dear distraught sister Martha knows of death and resurrection on the Last Day but Yahushua says NOTHING of Lazarus in comfort on Abraham’s bosom...


    No gospel of Lazarus either about His joyous time with Abraham and the other saints resting there NOR of scorching flames to warn the living

    Because Lazarus slept...was dead...

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    They are not new concepts in the NT Bible. Rather they are the fundamental Pharisaic (Essene as well) concepts adapted by most Jews back in Jesus' days. That's how these concepts are referred to by the NT Bible.

    If you read Joesphus (a Pharisee). You may know that there are mainly 3 Jewish sects back in Jesus' days, namely, the Pharisees, and Sadducees and the Essenes.

    The Sadducees only reckon the first 5 books of the OT Bible - The Law. They had minimal influence to the Jews in majority in terms of Judaism. This can be told by the OT Bible Canon used by the Jews. There's never a 5 book Canon adapted. The OT Canon were over 20 books all the times back in Jesus' days, as governed by the Great Sanhedrin. Even though Sanhedrin itself is a mixture of both Sadducees and Pharisees, the Bible canon was literally under the control of the Pharisees. However they may not be able to introduce a book such as the book of Enoch into the Canon as this would cause a fundamental conflict between the Sadducees and Pharisees while they both shared power inside the Great Sanhedrin.

    Hades (in Greek) or Sheol (in Hebrew) is a place for the detention of human souls. There's an other place set aside called Lake of Fire, wicked souls and fallen angels will be cast into this region after the final judgment. Before the final judgment, the fallen angels are chained in yet another location referred to as pit or Abyss.

    2 Peter 2:4 (NRSV)
    For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgment;



    Some Jews also extended these concepts to think that there's yet another location for the good souls to stay. That place is called paradise.

    The Essenes possess the same concepts as those of Pharisees in terms of Hades and Lake of Fire. Gehenna (hell) is often used as an equivalent to the Lake of Fire.

    The term "hell" (a term either from German or English) can be used for both Hades and Lake of Fire. Jesus descended to hell for three days. Here the hell refers to Hades instead of Lake of Fire. The same is used in Psalm,

    Psalm 139:8 (KJV)
    If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.



    They are all original Jewish concepts instead of Christianity concepts. These concepts can be found in NT Bible simply because they are common concepts adapted by the Jews in majority back in Jesus' days. They are concepts once dominating, while Jesus never tried to point out that they are in fault. Instead He applied the same concepts all the times in His speeches and parables.

    Today's Judaism is completely something else. It's revived by rabbis living after AD 250 or so. They no longer enforce those concepts once upheld by the Pharisees and Essenes. Today's Judaism is more like a religion applying the Sadducee concepts but using a Pharisaic Bible canon.
    Last edited by Hawkins; January 4th, 2019 at 11:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    What does the Bible say about hell? Here are the verses. I hope to discuss them with you. Is there anything else from the Bible that you would include?

    Hell

    Matthew 5:22 NASB - "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty [enough to go] into the fiery hell.

    Matthew 5:29 NASB - "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

    Matthew 5:30 NASB - "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

    Matthew 10:28 NASB - "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Matthew 18:9 NASB - "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

    Matthew 23:15 NASB - "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

    Matthew 23:33 NASB - "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

    Mark 9:43 NASB - "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

    Mark 9:45 NASB - "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,

    Mark 9:47 NASB - "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,

    Luke 12:5 NASB - "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

    James 3:6 NASB - And the tongue is a fire, the [very] world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of [our] life, and is set on fire by hell.

    2 Peter 2:4 NASB - For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
    The word Hadees occurs but eleven times in the New Testament, and is translated Hell ten times, and grave once. The word is from a, not, and eulo, to see, and means concealed, invisible. It has exactly the same meaning as Sheol, literally the grave, or death, and figuratively destruction, downfall, calamity, or punishment in this world, with no intimation whatever of torment or punishment beyond the grave.

    Such is the meaning in every passage in the Old Testament containing the word Sheol or Hadees, whether translated Hell, grave or pit. Such is the invariable meaning of Hadees in the New Testament. Says the "Emphatic Diaglott:" "To translate Hadees by the word Hell as it is done ten times out of eleven in the New Testament, is very improper, unless it has the Saxon meaning of helan, to cover, attached to it. The primitive signification of Hell, only denoting what was secret or concealed, perfectly corresponds with the Greek term Hadees and its equivalent Sheol, but the theological definition given to it at the present day by no means expresses it." The Greek Septuagint, which our Lord used when he read or quoted from the Old Testament, gives Hadees as the exact equivalent of the Hebrew Sheol, and when the Savior, or his apostles, use the word, they must mean the same as it meant in the Old Testament. When Hadees is used in the New Testament, we must understand it just as we do (Sheol or Hadees) in the Old Testament.

    Dr. George Campbell, a celebrated critic, says that "Sheol signifies the state of the dead in general, without regard to the goodness or badness of the persons, their happiness or misery."…
    We now consider the word Tartarus: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to Hell (Tartarus), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment." II Peter 2:4. The word in the Greek is Tartarus, or rather it is a very from that noun. "Cast down to hell" should be tartarused, (tartarosas). The Greeks held Tartarus, says Anthon, in his Classical Dictionary to be "the fabled place of punishment in the lower world." Besides, these angels are not to be detained always in Tartarus, they are to be released. The language is, "delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment." When their judgment comes, they emerge from duress. They only remain in Tartarus "unto judgment." This word is used only once in the Bible.

    "The word Gehenna is derived, as all agree, from the Hebrew words ge hinnom; which, in process of time, passing into other languages, assumed diverse forms; e.g., Chaldee Gehennom, Arabic Gahannam, Greek Gehenna.
    The valley of Hinnom is part of the pleasant wadi or valley, which bounds Jerusalem on the south. Josh. 15:8; 18:6. Here, in ancient times and under some of the idolatrous kings, the worship of Moloch, the horrid idol-god of the Ammonites, was practiced. To this idol, children were offered in sacrifice. II Kings 23:10; Ezek. 23:37, 39; II Chron. 28:3; Lev. 28:21; 20:2. If we may credit the Rabbins, the head of the idol was like that of an ox; while the rest of the body resembled that of a man. It was hollow within; and being heated by fire, children were laid in its arms and were literally roasted alive. We cannot wonder, then at the severe terms in which the worship of Moloch is everywhere denounced in the Scriptures. Nor can we wonder that the place itself should have been called Tophet, i.e., abomination, detestation, (from toph, to vomit with loathing)." Jer. 8:32; 19:6; II Kings 23:10; Ezek. 23:36, 39.
    "After these sacrifices had ceased, the place was desecrated, and made one of loathing and horror. The pious king Josiah caused it to be polluted, i.e., he caused to be carried there the filth of the city of Jerusalem. It would seem that the custom of desecrating this place thus happily begun, was continued in after ages down to the period when our Savior was on earth. Perpetual fires were kept up in order to consume the rubbish which was deposited there. And as the same rubbish would breed worms, (for so all putrefying meat does of course), therefore came the expression, 'Where the worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.' " Stuart's Exegetical Ess., pp. 140-141.

    The word should have been left untranslated as it is in some versions of the Bible, and it would not be misunderstood. It was not misunderstood by the Jews to whom Jesus addressed it. Walter Balfour well says: "What meaning would the Jews who were familiar with this word, and knew it to signify the valley of Hinnom, be likely to attach to it when they heard it used by our Lord? Would they, contrary to all former usage, transfer its meaning from a place with whose locality and history they had been familiar from their infancy, to a place of misery in another world? This conclusion is certainly inadmissible. By what rule of interpretation, then, can we arrive at the conclusion that this word means a place of misery and death?"

    One must also note... the term Hell is used more in the 1611 KJV bible 22 in verses.. 23 in your modern KJV... much more than it is used in your modern version we have today... The Nasb has only 13 verses and the ESV and NIV only 14 verses... Hell has been slowly removed with each new translation... Why?

    I think you know why...


    Paul
    From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth,
    From the laziness that is content with half-truths,
    From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
    Oh God of Truth, deliver us.

    ~ Ancient Prayer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pierac View Post
    I think you know why...


    Paul
    No, you can't just get to a conclusion by ignoring the Jewish history as a whole and making up the concepts themselves out of context.

    Here's how 1st century Jewish historian Josephus tried to explain what Hades is to the Greeks.



    An Extract Out of Josephus’ Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades:

    1. Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things they see, and rejoice in the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners.

    2. In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment, as having been the causes of defilement; while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined.


    The following verses are rather based off the concepts embedded above, instead of standing alone by themselves only in the NT.

    Matthew 25:41 (NIV2011)
    Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    2 Peter 2:4 (NIV2011)
    For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;
    Last edited by Hawkins; January 4th, 2019 at 12:27 PM.

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