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Thread: We need more law keepers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcon View Post
    Maybe that Witness misunderstood your question or the context of your question. I don't know, I wasn't there. I do know, however that Jehovah's Witnesses are the most organized religion that I've ever been associated with. As for Jesus' participation in Jewish customs, these were approved by his Father and part of Jewish worship at the time.

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    Maybe some people just have a problem with organized religion. I am saying that a person may have to understand what is meant by the person saying it. Maybe they have to deal with people who are turned off to organized religion.

    I am a Jewish convert, so I don't have any trouble celebrating the things of the Law, the Torah, that Jesus celebrated, and even other traditions like Chanukah. I hear that He celebrated Chanukah. I know about Passover. And Paul with the feast of Unleavened Bread.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Not much trouble with that. I found something in the Bible that was disagreed with. And another place I had my own comment for what was being said. Bad situation I wish it hadn't come up like that because though I believe I acted in good faith others may have been right in my ignorance. I still don't know.

    Matthew 5:17-20.
    The Orthodox Jew is good. But now the Orthodox say that they don't speak about Jesus while I knew someone who did speak of Yeshua though I do not know how well received he was. My understanding has been that the Orthodox observe God's commandments.
    At this point, one of the few things I know about Orthodox Jews in the time of Jesus, is they refused to accept Jesus as the Messiah and his Father as their God. The Jews at one time were Godís chosen people. They eventually decided that they could do a better job of deciding what was best for themselves. This caused Jehovah to disown them for good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcon View Post
    At this point, one of the few things I know about Orthodox Jews in the time of Jesus, is they refused to accept Jesus as the Messiah and his Father as their God. The Jews at one time were God’s chosen people. They eventually decided that they could do a better job of deciding what was best for themselves. This caused Jehovah to disown them for good.

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    There are things yet for you to learn.

    I don't believe there were Orthodox Jews then. We may learn differently in the future.

    Yes, the Jews are God's Chosen People. God has not rejected them.

    Deuteronomy 7:6 NASB - "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

    Deuteronomy 14:2 NASB - "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

    Luke 1:68 NASB - "Blessed [be] the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,

    Luke 7:16 NASB - Fear gripped them all, and they [began] glorifying God, saying, "A great prophet has arisen among us!" and, "God has visited His people!"

    Romans 11:1 NASB - I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    Romans 11:2 NASB - God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in [the passage about] Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

    Here are a couple more good verses that may help.

    Hebrews 2:17 NASB - Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

    Revelation 21:3 NASB - And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

    About the Law you might be pleased to see the following.

    Galatians 2:21 NASB - "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness [comes] through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

    The truth is for both Jewish and Gentile.

    Acts 26:23 NASB - that the Christ was to suffer, [and] that by reason of [His] resurrection from the dead He would be the first to proclaim light both to the [Jewish] people and to the Gentiles."

    Are you familiar with the following?

    1 Peter 2:9 NASB - But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR [God's] OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Maybe some people just have a problem with organized religion. I am saying that a person may have to understand what is meant by the person saying it. Maybe they have to deal with people who are turned off to organized religion.

    I am a Jewish convert, so I don't have any trouble celebrating the things of the Law, the Torah, that Jesus celebrated, and even other traditions like Chanukah. I hear that He celebrated Chanukah. I know about Passover. And Paul with the feast of Unleavened Bread.
    Believe it or not, Jehovahís Witnesses celebrate the Passover once every year, on the anniversary of Jesus' death, according to the Jewish calendar. We feel that it's not necessary to celebrate the Passover more than once a year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcon View Post
    Believe it or not, Jehovah’s Witnesses celebrate the Passover once every year, on the anniversary of Jesus' death, according to the Jewish calendar. We feel that it's not necessary to celebrate the Passover more than once a year.

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    Passover is one time per year for the children of Israel, all men being circumcised according to the Law.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Passover is one time per year for the children of Israel, all men being circumcised according to the Law.
    Jesus commanded his followers to celebrate the Passover in remembrance of him. By that time, he accepted anyone as his followers, not just the Jews. Remember too, that it was the Jews of his day who insisted on his death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcon View Post
    Jesus commanded his followers to celebrate the Passover in remembrance of him. By that time, he accepted anyone as his followers, not just the Jews. Remember too, that it was the Jews of his day who insisted on his death.

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    Did Jesus minister only to the Jews of His time?
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    We need more law keepers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Do you believe that it is a good thing to keep the law? Some say that with salvation there is no requirement to keep the law. The government wants us to keep the law or to live without criminal behavior. Do you observe God's Law or the law of the land? What are the benefits of law keeping? What are the things to stay away from?

    In light of the fact that people transgress the law can we say that we need more law keepers or should we say we need more people to not break the law? Does the law only tell us what not to do, and as long as we aren't doing those things we do not need to think of or about the law?
    Prior to 1965, it was illegal to marry someone from a visibly different race in 19 American states - this is but one example concerning the wisdom of blindly following laws that are morally and ethically flawed!

    If the Founding Fathers had been content to follow "THE LAW," America would have remained a British Colony!
    Last edited by jgarden; January 3rd, 2019 at 02:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgarden View Post
    We need more law keepers


    Prior to 1965, it was illegal to marry someone from a visibly different race in 19 American states - this is but one example concerning the wisdom of blindly following laws that are morally and ethically flawed!

    If the Founding Fathers had been content to follow "THE LAW," America would have remained a British Colony!
    Interesting perspectives. Why illegal? What evidence do you have of this? There should not be anything wrong with this. We do need to be aware of what we are doing in any and all cases where we make a covenant, even if marriage is the only time we do so.

    Which THE LAW? Because the British were rejected in the Declaration of Independence.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Did Jesus minister only to the Jews of His time?
    GALATIANS2:11-21 Paul Opposes Cephas (Peter)

    11 When Cephas (Peter) came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
    12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.
    13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.


    14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

    15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

    17 “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.

    19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

    *****************************************

    Galatians 2:11-21 provides an incite into the controversy that confronted the early Christian Church when it came to the inclusion of of Gentiles!

    The Apostle Paul reprimands the Disciple Peter and other Christian Jews, he referred to as "judaizers," for refusing to eat and socialize with Gentile Christians who did not share their customs and dietary laws.

    During the 1stC, the Jerusalem Church perceived Christianity as a branch of Judiaism and therefore taught that Gentile males be subjected to circumcision in order to become accepted as Jews.

    Paul was vehemently opposed to Gentile circumcision as a prerequisite to becoming a Christian, a practice he opposed on theological grounds and his knowledge of the prevailing Greek culture that strongly discouraged the "mutilation" of the human body!
    Last edited by jgarden; January 3rd, 2019 at 03:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Interesting perspectives. Why illegal? What evidence do you have of this? There should not be anything wrong with this. We do need to be aware of what we are doing in any and all cases where we make a covenant, even if marriage is the only time we do so.

    Which THE LAW? Because the British were rejected in the Declaration of Independence.
    Any attempt by American colonists to severe ties with "the motherland" was considered "treasonous" by the British government - the same could be said about how the Union perceived those states that attempted to join the Confederacy prior to the Civil War!

    The Founding Fathers are not remembered for their role as "law keepers," but for their bravery and foresight to rise above their current status as colonies by risking their lives to provide a new vision for government and society!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgarden View Post
    GALATIANS2:11-21 Paul Opposes Cephas (Peter)

    11 When Cephas (Peter) came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
    12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.
    13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.


    14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

    15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

    17 “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.

    19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

    *****************************************

    Galatians 2:11-21 provides an incite into the controversy that confronted the early Christian Church when it came to the inclusion of of Gentiles!

    The Apostle Paul reprimands the Disciple Peter and other Christian Jews, he referred to as "judaizers," for refusing to eat and socialize with Gentile Christians who did not share their customs and dietary laws.

    During the 1stC, the Jerusalem Church perceived Christianity as a branch of Judiaism and therefore taught that Gentile males be subjected to circumcision in order to become accepted as Jews.

    Paul was vehemently opposed to Gentile circumcision as a prerequisite to becoming a Christian, a practice he opposed on theological grounds and his knowledge of the prevailing Greek culture that strongly discouraged the "mutilation" of the human body!
    As for Judaizers I do not know if they were believers or not. Can we look at this more closely? The people you have mentioned here may not fit the bill for what is revealed in the Scriptures about (the) Judaizers.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgarden View Post
    Any attempt by American colonists to severe ties with "the motherland" was considered "treasonous" by the British government - the same could be said about how the Union perceived those states that attempted to join the Confederacy prior to the Civil War!

    The Founding Fathers are not remembered for their role as "law keepers," but for their bravery and foresight to rise above their current status as colonies by risking their lives to provide a new vision for government and society!
    Very good. Very well. Thank you for sharing. I think that it is important to keep the law. This may be difference from a discussion of what would be treason or treasonous. Have you thought about God's Law or are you referring to the law or laws of nations or governments and societies?
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    As for Judaizers I do not know if they were believers or not. Can we look at this more closely? The people you have mentioned here may not fit the bill for what is revealed in the Scriptures about (the) Judaizers.
    The New Testament, as we know it, had yet to be written leaving the earliest Christians to rely on an oral tradition spread by the Disciples and their personal interpretations of His message.

    The Jerusalem Church, the earliest standard-bearer for Christianity, saw it as a branch of Judaism - which was already established on strict Mosaic dietary laws and customs, including the circumcision of all Hebrew males.

    "Judaizers" were Jewish Christians associated with the Jerusalem Church, who taught in order to become a Christian, Gentiles needed to be Jews (circumcision)!

    Suddenly this interpretation is being challenged by the Apostle Paul, who was not one of the 12 Disciples, never met Jesus during his time on earth and as a Pharisee had a reputation for persecuting Christians!

    Needless to say, Paul's miraculous "conversion" would have been viewed with deep suspicion.

    Paul also preaches a far more "Gentile friendly" gospel whereby Christianity is now perceived as independent of its Jewish origins - thus dispensing with the need for Gentile circumcision!

    The Destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 71 AD and the dispersal of Jews throughout the Empire, sees the demise of the Jerusalem Church and its Jewish influence - shifting early Christianity to a faith now dominated by its Gentile wing.
    Last edited by jgarden; January 3rd, 2019 at 04:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgarden View Post
    The New Testament, as we know it, had yet to be written leaving the earliest Christians to rely on an oral tradition spread by the Disciples.

    The Jerusalem Church which was the earliest standard-bearer for Christianity saw it as a branch of Judaism - which was established on strict dietary laws and customs, including the circumcision of all Hebrew males.

    "Judaizers" were Jewish Christians associated with the Jerusalem Church who taught in order to become a Christian, Gentiles needed to be Jews!

    Suddenly this interpretation is challenged by the Apostle Paul, who was not one of the 12 Disciples, never met Jesus during his time on earth and based on his past history of persecuting Christians as a Pharisee!

    Needless to say, Paul's miraculous "conversion" would have been viewed with deep suspicion.

    Paul preaches a far more "Gentile friendly" gospel whereby Christianity is now perceived as independent of its Jewish origins - thus dispensing with the need for Gentile circumcision!

    The Destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 79 AD and the dispersal of Jews throughout the Empire, sees the demise of the Jerusalem Church and its Jewish influence - shifting early Christianity to a faith now dominated by its Gentile wing.
    I believe that it is important not to read something that is not there.

    Also, I thought the temple was destroyed about 70AD.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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