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Thread: Ad on Theology Online: "Save Roe." What does it mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    I believe that abortion is against the law. But appropriate legislation may make it so. Meaning, it is against God's Law. But courts do not determine law. They interpret it.
    Actually to my understanding, God's law is rather silent on the subject. I think the closest it comes to the subject is that up to a certain point causing a woman to miscarry was seen as a financial crime against the father to which the person responsible had to pay financial restitution. I think prior to the 'quickening' the law didn't even recognize the unborn child as a life.

    The courts do settle conflicts between laws and rights when they arise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    Actually to my understanding, God's law is rather silent on the subject. I think the closest it comes to the subject is that up to a certain point causing a woman to miscarry was seen as a financial crime against the father to which the person responsible had to pay financial restitution. I think prior to the 'quickening' the law didn't even recognize the unborn child as a life.

    The courts do settle conflicts between laws and rights when they arise.
    I do not remember God's Law the way that you are telling it.

    What are you saying?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    I do not remember God's Law the way that you are telling it.

    What are you saying?
    That there is no reference in the Old or New Testament and the greater Mosaic Law that directly addresses abortion. There is a passage in Numbers that might but it is questionable. Yet abortion did exist in biblical times, there were Assyrian laws on the subject.

    Under Mosaic law, a child was not considered Human until it was halfway born and drew its first breath (the breath of life). From the quickening until birth, the unborn child is considered a potential life that if destroyed was seen as a financial loss to the father. A pregnant woman accused of a capital crime was executed along with the supposedly innocent child.

    Here is a good reference site on the subject:
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_bibl.htm
    Last edited by Kit the Coyote; December 24th, 2018 at 01:08 PM. Reason: Added link

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    That there is no reference in the Old or New Testament and the greater Mosaic Law that directly addresses abortion. There is a passage in Numbers that might but it is questionable. Yet abortion did exist in biblical times, there were Assyrian laws on the subject.

    Under Mosaic law, a child was not considered Human until it was halfway born and drew its first breath (the breath of life). From the quickening until birth, the unborn child is considered a potential life that if destroyed was seen as a financial loss to the father. A pregnant woman accused of a capital crime was executed along with the supposedly innocent child.

    Here is a good reference site on the subject:
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_bibl.htm
    The life of the unborn is protected according to the Law of Moses.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    The life of the unborn is protected according to the Law of Moses.
    As referenced above, yes. Though that did not seem to apply prior to quickening so it was not from conception and not the same as a Human life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    As referenced above, yes. Though that did not seem to apply prior to quickening so it was not from conception and not the same as a Human life.
    An unborn child is certainly human. Nothing in the scriptures says anything against this.

    What is quickening? Also, you said the life was not protected from conception? For when does life begin? I understand a baby taking its first breath or the birth with the birth canal though I am not married, but the unborn is human and alive as much as anything. A child is protected in the womb, and may survive at less than 9 months or so even so. Gestation is often 9 months.

    What do you mean a financial loss to the father? I do not see that in what you are saying to have come from anything of the Torah. If you are saying that there is father and mother for the unborn, certainly yes.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    An unborn child is certainly human. Nothing in the scriptures says anything against this.
    Depends on what you mean by a human, if talking biology correct, But if you are talking a person with a soul, not so correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    What is quickening? Also, you said the life was not protected from conception? For when does life begin? I understand a baby taking its first breath or the birth with the birth canal though I am not married, but the unborn is human and alive as much as anything. A child is protected in the womb, and may survive at less than 9 months or so even so. Gestation is often 9 months.
    My understanding is the quickening is when the baby can first be felt moving independently inside its mother.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    What do you mean a financial loss to the father? I do not see that in what you are saying to have come from anything of the Torah. If you are saying that there is father and mother for the unborn, certainly yes.
    In that legal system, the penalty for murder was death. But death was not the penalty for killing an unborn child, specifically causing a woman to miscarry. Instead, the penalty was to pay to the father a financial penalty as restitution for future income the father has now lost from the child that will not be born.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    Depends on what you mean by a human, if talking biology correct, But if you are talking a person with a soul, not so correct.
    Interesting talking about people with a soul. A living being, yes. Adam and Eve. Is a person a human or a human a person? The word person applies to all living humans, but some may emphasize men or males or those who have a face, or whatever. It might have something to do with acting. But of course an unborn child is a person (human). And of course they are alive. Not the same as taking a breath, but I do not know what the difference would be in regard to personhood.
    My understanding is the quickening is when the baby can first be felt moving independently inside its mother.
    Oh. Okay.
    In that legal system, the penalty for murder was death. But death was not the penalty for killing an unborn child, specifically causing a woman to miscarry. Instead, the penalty was to pay to the father a financial penalty as restitution for future income the father has now lost from the child that will not be born.
    Interesting perspective. Do you have a scripture about the father? Causing a woman to miscarry... is that the same as killing an unborn child? The penalty for murder is death, yes. Are you meaning to argue or not argue that point?
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Interesting perspective. Do you have a scripture about the father? Causing a woman to miscarry... is that the same as killing an unborn child? The penalty for murder is death, yes. Are you meaning to argue or not argue that point?
    Exodus 21-22 The penalty for causing a miscarriage is a financial one unless the woman dies, in which case it is murder.

    “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows.23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
    So it would seem that the loss of the unborn child is not considered a serious injury.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    Exodus 21-22 The penalty for causing a miscarriage is a financial one unless the woman dies, in which case it is murder.



    So it would seem that the loss of the unborn child is not considered a serious injury.
    There is a commandment about two unmarried who have sex and there is money that is supposed to go to the father of the girl (he is supposed to marry her). Here the word is husband.

    To cause a miscarriage or to have caused a miscarriage might be different. For one is an action with or without intent to do so, and the other is the end result of an action. This to say there may have been no intent to do so, but if this is the result there is a financial aspect to what is owed. If there was no intent it is the same law. If there was intent is there a greater bigger law or something based on intent, to kill, rather than to have cause injury substantial enough to end in a miscarriage? For example, an abortion is obviously different from hurting or harming the baby in the womb, or the mother, such as to cause a miscarriage. Intent to kill or take life should be assessed or taken differently.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    There is a commandment about two unmarried who have sex and there is money that is supposed to go to the father of the girl (he is supposed to marry her). Here the word is husband.

    To cause a miscarriage or to have caused a miscarriage might be different. For one is an action with or without intent to do so, and the other is the end result of an action. This to say there may have been no intent to do so, but if this is the result there is a financial aspect to what is owed. If there was no intent it is the same law. If there was intent is there a greater bigger law or something based on intent, to kill, rather than to have cause injury substantial enough to end in a miscarriage? For example, an abortion is obviously different from hurting or harming the baby in the womb, or the mother, such as to cause a miscarriage. Intent to kill or take life should be assessed or taken differently.
    Well again, it is really one of the very few references we have because the Bible and Torah do not talk about abortion at all.

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    So we again turn to translation error to say the passage is unclear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    Well again, it is really one of the very few references we have because the Bible and Torah do not talk about abortion at all.
    True.

    But they do talk about murder and injury.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    So we again turn to translation error to say the passage is unclear.
    Interesting, huh?!
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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