User Tag List

Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 79

Thread: Trump is right to fight for the border wall

  1. #31
    Over 5000 post club WizardofOz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    5,114
    Thanks
    1,923
    Thanked 2,385 Times in 1,326 Posts

    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    1345007
    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    i looked at the article and didn't see where the DHS claimed that a 30–foot tall wall cannot be scaled and a tunnel cannot be built deeper than six feet below ground

    got a quote?
    It's simply a rhetorical statement from the rather in-depth article I linked. Is that the only aspect you are choosing to question?


    according to the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration, most of the smuggled marijuana as well as cocaine, heroin, and methamphetamines comes through the 52 legal ports of entry on the border.



    EDIT: Addressed better here
    Last edited by WizardofOz; December 26th, 2018 at 01:00 PM.
    “To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

    ― Theodore Roosevelt

    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem

  2. #32
    Over 5000 post club WizardofOz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    5,114
    Thanks
    1,923
    Thanked 2,385 Times in 1,326 Posts

    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    1345007
    No. It would be a huge waste of money and mostly ineffectual.
    Quote Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
    That's two lies in one one sentence. Outstanding.

    So, you don't even know what a lie is.

    Outstanding?

    First of all the wall is very effectual; Just ask the Israelis: Their wall has cut Palestinian crossover to next to nothing. And on our own border, crossings are almost non-resistant where there is good sections of wall.

    Analysis Why Comparing the Mexican and Gaza Borders Is Irresistible, but Dangerous
    The comparison does little more than score political points, and by fanning the already-high level of rhetorical flames, may actually be making matters worse

    Apples and oranges



    As for money: Illegal immigration to the U.S. costs federal, state and local taxpayers a staggering net cost of $116 billion a year. At that rate, the wall will pay for itself in a few months.

    As usual, you don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about.

    Border fence in Israel cut illegal immigration by 99 percent, GOP senator says
    https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ration-99-per/

    ".......Experts we reached out to agree that illegal immigration along Egypt’s southern border has indeed significantly dropped in the years after the fence was built and that Johnson's assessment of its costs and timeframe are sound....."
    Now, what you so conveniently left out of your own link...


    Experts we reached out to agree that illegal immigration along Egypt’s southern border has indeed significantly dropped in the years after the fence was built and that Johnson's assessment of its costs and timeframe are sound.

    However, they warn against generalizing that the fence is the sole reason for the drop and raise objections in comparing Israel’s border issues to those in the United States.

    The success of barriers such as a wall or fence depend on their scale and how heavily guarded they are, said Reece Jones, a political geography professor at the University of Hawai'i-Manoa and who has written about money spent on border security projects and their consequences.

    On a small scale and with many guards, walls can effectively stop movement, Jones said.

    But Israel and the United States’ southern borders are significantly different.

    The Israel-Egypt border fence is about 150 miles.

    The U.S.-Mexico border is nearly 2,000 miles.

    Terrain conditions and number of agents needed to monitor the border are not comparable either, Jones said.

    "Most of the Israeli fence goes through open, arid terrain. Easy to access, easy to build, easy to monitor with agents," Jones said.

    The U.S.-Mexico border, on the other hand, includes very remote, mountainous terrain and spans the length of four states with cities closely intertwined with Mexico. Trump has said that border has 1 million legal border crossings daily, which experts have told us include people traveling back and forth for school, work and shopping.

    Investment in high-tech features such as drones, robots and sensors is also crucial for border security, not just fences, added Elisabeth Vallet, who leads a research team on border walls and is Raoul-Dandurand Chair at the University of Quebec at Montreal.

    Without those features, people may still go undetected or go around through another border. If illegal entries surge at another border point, then the effectiveness of the fence at one border comes into question, Vallet said.

    "While the numbers show a dramatic decrease in the number of entries, the amount of credit attributed to the fence is an issue of serious debate in Israel," said Yonatan Jakubowicz, director of research and public relations at the Israeli Immigration Policy Center, an NGO in Israel.

    Some were skeptical about the fence’s effectiveness when the idea was introduced in 2009, but the barrier received wider support after a terrorist attack on the border road in August 2011, Jakubowicz said.

    He also said that aside from the fence, additional policies have reduced illegal immigration.

    The number of illegal border crossings decreased drastically "in an extremely short time" after the implementation of an "Anti-Infiltration Law" in mid 2012, Jakubowicz said.

    Under the law, individuals caught illegally entering Israel could be detained for up to three years, Jakubowicz said. The number of people illegally crossing Israel’s southern border decreased after the law came into effect, even though the fence was not fully completed, he said.

    "The fact that people continued to arrive even after the total completion of the fence, with fluctuations, proves that a barrier makes illegal migration more difficult, but not impossible," Jakubowicz said. "Personal interviews and close inspection of migrant diaspora news outlets show that the combination of the fence and the immigration policies are to be attributed to these numbers, and not the fence alone."

    Our ruling

    Johnson said Israel cut its illegal immigration rate by "99 percent" by constructing a 143-mile fence along its southern border.

    Israeli government data support Johnson’s statement. However, experts say the fence alone is not responsible for the dramatic decrease in illegal immigration, policies have also deterred illegal border crossings. Border security experts also caution about comparing Israel and the United States’ southern borders -- the U.S.-Mexico border is much longer than the Israel-Egypt border, terrain conditions are different and more agents would be needed to monitor the U.S. border.



    Again, apples and oranges. These are two very different borders.

    You're simply a partisan hack who lacks any discernment or objectivity when looking at political issues.
    “To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

    ― Theodore Roosevelt

    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to WizardofOz For Your Post:

    Kit the Coyote (December 26th, 2018)

  4. #33
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    US of A
    Posts
    5,340
    Thanks
    458
    Thanked 731 Times in 598 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by WizardofOz View Post
    So, you don't even know what a lie is. ......
    A lie is everything you post.

  5. #34
    Over 5000 post club WizardofOz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    5,114
    Thanks
    1,923
    Thanked 2,385 Times in 1,326 Posts

    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    1345007
    Quote Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
    A lie is everything you post.

    Powerful rebuttal

    I need to sit down...
    “To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

    ― Theodore Roosevelt

    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to WizardofOz For Your Post:

    drbrumley (December 26th, 2018)

  7. #35
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    22,274
    Thanks
    2,601
    Thanked 7,158 Times in 5,334 Posts

    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147747
    Quote Originally Posted by WizardofOz View Post
    It's simply a rhetorical statement ...

    aka a strawman


    that seems to be a common occurrence when discussing the wall

  8. #36
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    22,274
    Thanks
    2,601
    Thanked 7,158 Times in 5,334 Posts

    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147747
    another strawman often encountered:
    Quote Originally Posted by WizardofOz View Post
    "The fact that people continued to arrive even after the total completion of the fence, with fluctuations, proves that a barrier makes illegal migration more difficult, but not impossible," Jakubowicz said. "Personal interviews and close inspection of migrant diaspora news outlets show that the combination of the fence and the immigration policies are to be attributed to these numbers, and not the fence alone."

    nobody is proposing a "wall alone"

    rather, a wall as an integral part of an improved border security system

    not as catchy a meme, i know - i can't envision crowds of trump supporters chanting "build the wall as an integral part of an improved border security system"

  9. #37
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    22,274
    Thanks
    2,601
    Thanked 7,158 Times in 5,334 Posts

    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147747
    Quote Originally Posted by WizardofOz View Post
    ... the rather in-depth article I linked. Is that the only aspect you are choosing to question?


    i don't need to read any further than this to understand that the article is written for an audience of annabananaheads:


    The cheerful paintings of flowers on the tall metal posts on the Tijuana side of the border fence between the U.S. and Mexico belie the sadness of the Mexican families who have gathered there to exchange whispers, tears, and jokes with relatives on the San Diego side.



    oh, the pathos!

    oh, the humanity!


    oh, the fact that the article doesn't explain why those poor poor families with their poor poor relatives don't simply cross, legally and visit with each other, why they don't simply relocate to one side of the border or the other to be with each other permanently



    ya know, i could do the same thing if i wanted to attract the press - go over to the border and whisper at my foreign friends, weep at the cruelty of a border that keeps us from visiting each other in our homes

    or i could just take my enhanced drivers license, answer a half dozen questions to the Canadian custom agent/border guard and drive into this foreign country, respecting its laws, and spend a day drinking my friend's labatts

  10. #38
    Over 5000 post club WizardofOz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    5,114
    Thanks
    1,923
    Thanked 2,385 Times in 1,326 Posts

    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    1345007
    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    aka a strawman


    that seems to be a common occurrence when discussing the wall
    It's fair to point out that a wall will not be very effective if people can simply use one of the hundreds of tunnels that already go underneath where any future wall would stand. Given the estimated total cost, it's fair to question the effectiveness of the wall. If a comprehensive plan addressed many of these possible shortcomings then perhaps a plan to build a wall would be more agreeable.

    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    another strawman often encountered:

    nobody is proposing a "wall alone"

    rather, a wall as an integral part of an improved border security system

    not as catchy a meme, i know - i can't envision crowds of trump supporters chanting "build the wall as an integral part of an improved border security system"
    Can I see this improved border security system plan, including the estimated breakdown of cost?
    “To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

    ― Theodore Roosevelt

    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to WizardofOz For Your Post:

    Kit the Coyote (December 26th, 2018)

  12. #39
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    22,274
    Thanks
    2,601
    Thanked 7,158 Times in 5,334 Posts

    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147747
    another annoyance from the article:


    Why the wall wouldn’t stop smuggling



    What is the author saying here? That the wall won't stop any smuggling? That the wall won't stop all smuggling?

    if the former, it's a lie

    if the latter, another strawman

    either way, either lazy thinking or deliberate misrepresentation

    disappointing for the brookings institute

  13. #40
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    22,274
    Thanks
    2,601
    Thanked 7,158 Times in 5,334 Posts

    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147747
    Quote Originally Posted by WizardofOz View Post
    It's fair to point out that a wall will not be very effective if people can simply use one of the hundreds of tunnels that already go underneath ...
    you don't imagine they were filled in?



    Can I see this improved border security system plan, including the estimated breakdown of cost?
    Nancy?


  14. #41
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    22,274
    Thanks
    2,601
    Thanked 7,158 Times in 5,334 Posts

    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147747
    i hope they use the wall as a giant mural and paint pictures of happy mexicans waving at us

  15. #42
    TOL Subscriber musterion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    21,639
    Thanks
    4,155
    Thanked 20,034 Times in 11,544 Posts

    Blog Entries
    4
    Mentioned
    61 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147760
    Do open border leftists keep their doors open all the time?
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to musterion For Your Post:

    CatholicCrusader (December 26th, 2018)

  17. #43
    Gold level Subscriber drbrumley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    9,344
    Thanks
    523
    Thanked 2,979 Times in 1,874 Posts

    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    588725
    A Better Solution Than Trump’s Border Wall
    By Ron Paul
    Ron Paul Institute

    Just one week in office, President Trump is already following through on his pledge to address illegal immigration. His January 25th executive order called for the construction of a wall along the entire length of the US-Mexico border. While he is right to focus on the issue, there are several reasons why his proposed solution will unfortunately not lead us anywhere closer to solving the problem.

    First, the wall will not work. Texas already started building a border fence about ten years ago. It divided people from their own property across the border, it deprived people of their land through the use of eminent domain, and in the end, the problem of drug and human smuggling was not solved.

    Second, the wall will be expensive. The wall is estimated to cost between 12 and 15 billion dollars. You can bet it will be more than that. President Trump has claimed that if the Mexican government doesn’t pay for it, he will impose a 20 percent duty on products imported from Mexico. Who will pay this tax? Ultimately, the American consumer, as the additional costs will be passed on. This will, of course, hurt the poorest Americans the most.

    Third, building a wall ignores the real causes of illegal border crossings into the United States. Though President Trump is right to prioritize the problem of border security, he misses the point on how it can be done effectively and at an actual financial benefit to the country rather than a huge economic drain.

    The solution to really addressing the problem of illegal immigration, drug smuggling, and the threat of cross-border terrorism is clear: remove the welfare magnet that attracts so many to cross the border illegally, stop the 25 year US war in the Middle East, and end the drug war that incentivizes smugglers to cross the border.

    The various taxpayer-funded programs that benefit illegal immigrants in the United States, such as direct financial transfers, medical benefits, food assistance, and education, cost an estimated $100 billion dollars per year. That is a significant burden on citizens and legal residents. The promise of free money, free food, free education, and free medical care if you cross the border illegally is a powerful incentive for people to do so. It especially makes no sense for the United States government to provide these services to those who are not in the US legally.

    Likewise, the 40-year war on drugs has produced no benefit to the American people at a great cost. It is estimated that since President Nixon declared a war on drugs, the US has spent more than a trillion dollars to fight what is a losing battle. That is because just as with the welfare magnet, there is an enormous incentive to smuggle drugs into the United States.

    We already know the effect that ending the war on drugs has on illegal smuggling: as more and more US states decriminalize marijuana for medical and recreational uses, marijuana smuggling from Mexico to the US has dropped by 50 percent from 2010.

    Finally, the threat of terrorists crossing into the United States from Mexico must be taken seriously, however once again we must soberly consider why they may seek to do us harm. We have been dropping bombs on the Middle East since at least 1990. Last year President Obama dropped more than 26,000 bombs. Thousands of civilians have been killed in US drone attacks. The grand US plan to “remake” the Middle East has produced only misery, bloodshed, and terrorism. Ending this senseless intervention will go a long way toward removing the incentive to attack the United States.

    I believe it is important for the United States to have secure borders, but unfortunately, President Trump’s plan to build a wall will end up costing a fortune while ignoring the real problem of why people cross the borders illegally. They will keep coming as long as those incentives remain.
    Even in the very best of situations, voting is still an unmitigated failure. The fact that any simple majority of individuals (mob) can determine an outcome that adversely affects the minority (mob rule) is against all natural rights. In the United State today, all who vote harm others so that they might benefit. By voting, they are also sanctioning theft of private property at the point of a gun, and the redistribution of that property to those who did not earn it.

  18. #44
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    22,274
    Thanks
    2,601
    Thanked 7,158 Times in 5,334 Posts

    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147747
    Quote Originally Posted by drbrumley View Post
    ... President Trump has claimed that if the Mexican government doesn’t pay for it, he will impose a 20 percent duty on products imported from Mexico. Who will pay this tax? Ultimately, the American consumer, as the additional costs will be passed on. This will, of course, hurt the poorest Americans the most.
    "the poorest americans"

    that would include the illegals already in the country, right?

  19. #45
    Gold level Subscriber drbrumley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    9,344
    Thanks
    523
    Thanked 2,979 Times in 1,874 Posts

    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    588725
    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    "the poorest americans"

    that would include the illegals already in the country, right?
    Illegals make more than the "poorest American."
    Even in the very best of situations, voting is still an unmitigated failure. The fact that any simple majority of individuals (mob) can determine an outcome that adversely affects the minority (mob rule) is against all natural rights. In the United State today, all who vote harm others so that they might benefit. By voting, they are also sanctioning theft of private property at the point of a gun, and the redistribution of that property to those who did not earn it.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us