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Thread: John 20:28 and the Trinity

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    "Pierac stated... In 2 Corinthians 4: 4 Satan is also called the "god of this age." Does that mean that he is God Almighty? Of course not!

    Apple7 stated... Contrary to popular modern belief, ‘The God of this age’, (ho Theos tou aiōnos toutou), actually pertains to Jesus Christ and NOT Satan, and provides yet another potent scriptural proof for Jesus’ deity.


    2Co 4:4 among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of those who do not believe so they would not see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God.

    So your saying Jesus... the god of this age has... blinded the minds of those who do not believe so they would not see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ?

    Really, did you just post this?


    Paul
    From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth,
    From the laziness that is content with half-truths,
    From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
    Oh God of Truth, deliver us.

    ~ Ancient Prayer

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    What is so difficult when you correctly interpret the Scriptures?
    Really...
    Then it must be like when you are following the traditions of men... Like what your told to believe... like when you when you post such nonsense . You think you have all the answers but you nor your elders can't answer a single simple question...

    How does Jesus have a GOD!!!
    Both before and after his Resurrection

    So tell me with how you "correctly interpret the Scriptures"

    How does Jesus have a GOD both before and after his Resurrection?

    Do you need me to post a red letter bible showing Jesus say this???
    I think I will... show a few... Mat 27:46 ; Joh 20:17 ; Rev 3:12 ;

    Even Paul calles Jesus a Man after his Resurrection
    Act 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

    You post as a child!

    Paul
    Last edited by Pierac; December 27th, 2018 at 11:43 AM.
    From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth,
    From the laziness that is content with half-truths,
    From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
    Oh God of Truth, deliver us.

    ~ Ancient Prayer

  3. #48
    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pierac View Post
    Really...
    Then it must be like when you are following the traditions of men... Like what your told to believe... like when you when you post such nonsense . You think you have all the answers but you nor your elders can't answer a single simple question...

    How does Jesus have a GOD!!!
    Both before and after his Resurrection

    So tell me with how you "correctly interpret the Scriptures"

    How does Jesus have a GOD both before and after his Resurrection?

    Do you need me to post a red letter bible showing Jesus say this???
    I think I will... show a few... Mat 27:46 ; Joh 20:17 ; Rev 3:12 ;
    You post as a child!

    Paul
    What does the Bible say?

    1. John 10:30 The Father and I are one.

    2. Philippians 2:5-6 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

    3. John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    4. John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

    5. Colossians 2:9-10 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.



    Jesus claimed to be God.

    6. John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

    7. John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.



    Jesus is the Word.

    8. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    9. John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.



    Jesus Christ is the only way into Heaven.

    10. 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    11. Romans 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”



    I am He

    12. John 8:57-58 The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?” Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”

    13. John 8:22-24 This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?” But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

    14. John 13:18-19 “I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me.’ “I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.



    First and last: There’s only one God

    15. Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

    16. 1 Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

    17. Revelation 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.

    18. Revelation 1:17-18 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.



    Only God can be worshiped. Jesus was worshiped.

    19. Matthew 2:1-2 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

    20. Matthew 28:8-9 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.



    Prayed to

    21. Acts 7:59-60 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.



    The Trinity

    22. Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

    23. 2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.



    Examples

    24. John 20:27-28 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    25. 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.



    Bonus

    Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Right Divider (December 27th, 2018),way 2 go (December 27th, 2018)

  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    What does the Bible say?

    1. John 10:30 The Father and I are one.

    2. Philippians 2:5-6 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

    3. John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    4. John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

    5. Colossians 2:9-10 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.



    Jesus claimed to be God.

    6. John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

    7. John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.



    Jesus is the Word.

    8. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    9. John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.



    Jesus Christ is the only way into Heaven.

    10. 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    11. Romans 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”



    I am He

    12. John 8:57-58 The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?” Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”

    13. John 8:22-24 This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?” But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

    14. John 13:18-19 “I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me.’ “I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.



    First and last: There’s only one God

    15. Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

    16. 1 Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

    17. Revelation 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.

    18. Revelation 1:17-18 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.



    Only God can be worshiped. Jesus was worshiped.

    19. Matthew 2:1-2 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

    20. Matthew 28:8-9 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.



    Prayed to

    21. Acts 7:59-60 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.



    The Trinity

    22. Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

    23. 2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.



    Examples

    24. John 20:27-28 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    25. 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.



    Bonus

    Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
    Even Paul calles Jesus a Man after his Resurrection
    Act 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

    You post as a child!


    Paul
    From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth,
    From the laziness that is content with half-truths,
    From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
    Oh God of Truth, deliver us.

    ~ Ancient Prayer

  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pierac View Post
    Even Paul calles Jesus a Man after his Resurrection
    Act 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

    You post as a child!


    Paul
    Paul did NOT say that Jesus was ONLY a man.

    You post as less than a child.

    Jesus said that He would raise Himself from the dead. Was Jesus a liar?
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

  7. #51
    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post
    There is only one Devil my fried, Rev 12:9.

    (Revelation 12:9) "..So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, [SIZE=5the one called Devil and Satan[/SIZE]], who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him...

    As you know doubt aware, "Prince", at times, is simply another name for Angel/spirit, both good and bad angels/spirits can be referred to as princes.
    "Devils" occurs in the KJV bible text 48 times so I don't think it is incorrect to refer to "devils."

    Psalms 106:37 KJV
    (37) Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,

    Matthew 9:34 KJV
    (34) But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.

    Mark 16:9 KJV
    (9) Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

  8. #52
    Over 500 post club NWL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    "Devils" occurs in the KJV bible text 48 times so I don't think it is incorrect to refer to "devils."

    Psalms 106:37 KJV
    (37) Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,

    Matthew 9:34 KJV
    (34) But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.

    Mark 16:9 KJV
    (9) Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
    Luckily the KJV of the bible holds no authority over the original manuscripts. According to the greek and Hebrew of the ancient manuscripts there is only ever one Devil and always spoken of in the singular. Translations of holy scriptures hold no weight over the orginal and can error.

    Again, Devil is a name that belongs to Satan, even the KJV recognizes (yet contradicts this) by its rendering of Rev 12:9, "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan". Notice Satan isn't called a devil but the Devil.
    If you cant beat them join them

  9. #53
    Over 2000 post club way 2 go's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pierac View Post
    Really...
    Then it must be like when you are following the traditions of men... Like what your told to believe... like when you when you post such nonsense . You think you have all the answers but you nor your elders can't answer a single simple question...

    How does Jesus have a GOD!!!
    Both before and after his Resurrection

    So tell me with how you "correctly interpret the Scriptures"

    How does Jesus have a GOD both before and after his Resurrection?

    Do you need me to post a red letter bible showing Jesus say this???
    I think I will... show a few... Mat 27:46 ; Joh 20:17 ; Rev 3:12 ;

    Even Paul calles Jesus a Man after his Resurrection
    Act 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

    You post as a child!

    Paul
    Jesus said My God because he does have a father God & Jesus is also God

    Gen 1:1 In the beginningH7225 GodH430 =el-o-heem' Plural of H433 ; gods

    with God & God
    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

  10. #54
    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post
    Then how is it possible Satan is misleading the entire inhabited earth as Rev 12:9-12 clearly shows?
    1 Peter 5:8 KJV
    (8) Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

    The devil seems to be given limits as to what he may and may not do, as also evidenced from the early chapters of Job (Job 1:12, 2:6), and there is precedent for God allowing evil spirits to enter where his Spirit has been withdrawn (see 1 Samuel 16:14).

    John 14:30 KJV
    (30) Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

    John 12:30-31 KJV
    (30) Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
    (31) Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

    Ephesians 2:2 KJV
    (2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

    Ephesians 6:11-12 KJV
    (11) Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
    (12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    There are plenty of references that show the devil as a prince, principality, power, and ruler presently. If the confusion is from the word "god" I cannot imagine that as being too great a difficulty.

    1 Corinthians 8:5-6 KJV
    (5) For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
    (6) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    So what is the intent of the 2 Corinthians passage?

    2 Corinthians 4:4 KJV
    (4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    There are two things being contrasted: the blindness of the god of this world on one hand; and the glorious gospel of Christ who is the image of God on the other. It seems very clear to me that "the god of this world" is Satan, the devil.

    This understanding is readily accepted in the scholarly community, again, your literal interpretation of this verse is the unorthodox one here, not mine.
    Nor is this an unusual interpretation. I have a handful of commentaries that we can check here, including:
    Albert Barnes "There can be no doubt that Satan is here designated...";
    Adam Clarke " but who is meant by the god of this world? ... Satan."
    John Gill "Satan ... who is here styled the "god of this world"."
    Matthew Henry "They are under the influence and power of the devil, who is here called the god of this world, and elsewhere the prince of this world."
    John Wesley "The God of this world - What a sublime and horrible description of Satan!"

    In fact, I have not been able to find a single bible commentator that would identify "the god of this world" as anyone other than the Devil and Satan, so I am not sure how you are able to describe such as "unorthodox?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pierac View Post
    Even Paul calles Jesus a Man after his Resurrection
    Act 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

    You post as a child!


    Paul
    Even Moses calls God and his holy angels men when they appeared before Abraham.

    Genesis 18:1-2 KJV
    (1) And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
    (2) And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

    Genesis 18:22 KJV
    (22) And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

    Genesis 19:1 KJV
    (1) And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

    Genesis 19:5 KJV
    (5) And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

    P.S. Your "You post as a child!" taunt is rather childish.

  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    Jesus said My God because he does have a father God & Jesus is also God

    Gen 1:1 In the beginningH7225 GodH430 =el-o-heem' Plural of H433 ; gods

    with God & God
    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    Why do you teach what you hear in Church and not study for yourself!

    You teach GodH430 =el-o-heem' Plural of H433 ; gods as if it's an American term/belief!

    Why do I... someone so lowly in life have to teach you the truth... It's out there if you only look!


    Elohim
    Elohim has been a very confusing word for many people. The word elohim is used various ways in Scripture. It is not only used to describe the Almighty, but also individual pagan gods and even mighty human beings. Elohim may be translated as God, god, angels, judges, or even a human being who stands as God's representative or agent. For example, the sons of Heth address Abraham as "a mighty prince," the word for "mighty" being elohim (Genesis 23:6). Some translations have Abraham here being called "Prince of God." Take another instance. In Exodus 4, the Lord tells Moses that he "shall be as God" (elohim) to his brother Aaron. Moses will have God's words in his mouth, and will stand as God's representative before Aaron. Here is a case where an individual human is called elohim. Again in Exodus 7:1, the Lord says to Moses, "See, I make you God [elohim] to Pharaoh." No one dares to suggest that there is a plurality of persons within Moses because he is called elohim, that is, God's representative. The pagan god Dagon is also called elohim in the Hebrew Bible. The Philistines lamented that the God of Israel was harshly treating "Dagon our God [elohim]" (1 Sam. 5:7). Dagon was a single pagan deity. The same holds true for the single pagan god called Chemosh: “Do you not possess what Chemosh your god [elohim] gives you to possess?" (Jud. 11:24). The same for the single deity called Baal.

    The Hebrew language has many examples of words which are plural but whose meaning is singular. In Genesis 23, Abraham's wife Sarah dies. The Hebrew text says, "the lives [plural] of Sarah were 127 years" (v. 1). Even the plural verb that accompanies the pronoun does not mean Sarah lived multiple lives. The Hebrews never taught reincarnation or plurality of personhood. Another example of this kind of anomaly in the Hebrew language is found in Genesis 43. After Joseph wept to see his brothers, we read that Joseph "washed his faces" (plural). This is another instance where in the Hebrew language the plural noun functions as a singular noun with a singular meaning, unless, of course, Joseph was a multi-faced human being! The same occurs in Genesis 16:8 where Hagar flees from "the faces" (plural) of her mistress Sarah. These are "anomalies" of the Hebrew language that are clearly understood by Hebrew scholars who rightly translate to a singular form in English.

    The better explanation is that the Hebrews used a form of speech called "the plural of majesty." Put simply this means that someone whose position was warrant of dignity was spoken in this way as giving a sign of honor. The plural acted as a means of intensification:
    Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty.

    Whenever the word elohim refers to the God of Israel the Septuagint uses the singular and not the plural. From Genesis 1:1 consistently right through, this holds true. The Hebrews who translated their own scriptures into Greek simply had no idea that their God could be more than one individual, or a multiple personal Being! This is true too when we come to the New Testament. The New Testament nowhere hints at a plurality in the meaning of elohim when it reproduces references to the One God as ho theos, the One God.

    My friend... It's easier for you to believe a lie you have heard 1000 times, than to believe the truth you have heard once!

    Here's your once on the topic!


    Paul
    From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth,
    From the laziness that is content with half-truths,
    From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
    Oh God of Truth, deliver us.

    ~ Ancient Prayer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Even Moses calls God and his holy angels men when they appeared before Abraham.

    Genesis 18:1-2 KJV
    (1) And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
    (2) And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

    Genesis 18:22 KJV
    (22) And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

    Genesis 19:1 KJV
    (1) And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

    Genesis 19:5 KJV
    (5) And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

    P.S. Your "You post as a child!" taunt is rather childish.
    Spirit or Flesh?

    Many prophecies indicated that the Coming One would arise from the "seed," the stock of humanity, in a particular from Abrahamic and Davidic stock. The Messiah would be from the biological chain within the human family, specifically of Jewish pedigree: "The Lord your God will rise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your own countrymen [literally, brothers]; you shall listen to him" (Deut.18:15). In this passage, Moses predicts that the coming Messiah would be a person "like me," raised up from "among" the people of Israel, and that God would not speak to the people directly, because they were afraid that if God spoke without a mediator they would die (V16). The coming "prophet" would be a man of whom it is said that God would "put his word in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And it shall come about whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him” (v. 18-19). To say that the Messiah is God Himself is to contradict the whole point of this prophecy. For it announces that the ultimate spokesman for God is expressly not God but a human being. The New Testament says that Jesus is the one who fulfilled this prophecy (Acts 3:22; 7:37). Understandably, no Jew who believe theses Scriptures ever imagined that the baby born in Bethlehem was going to be Jehovah himself come as a human baby.
    In addition, Jehovah God says clearly that he is not a man (Numbers 23:19; Job 9:32). The converse is therefore true: if a person is a man, then he can not be God.

    On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on you as you sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that you could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden

    You join together... what Jesus said was forbidden!


    Paul
    From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth,
    From the laziness that is content with half-truths,
    From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
    Oh God of Truth, deliver us.

    ~ Ancient Prayer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pierac View Post
    Spirit or Flesh?
    Spoiler


    Many prophecies indicated that the Coming One would arise from the "seed," the stock of humanity, in a particular from Abrahamic and Davidic stock. The Messiah would be from the biological chain within the human family, specifically of Jewish pedigree: "The Lord your God will rise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your own countrymen [literally, brothers]; you shall listen to him" (Deut.18:15). In this passage, Moses predicts that the coming Messiah would be a person "like me," raised up from "among" the people of Israel, and that God would not speak to the people directly, because they were afraid that if God spoke without a mediator they would die (V16). The coming "prophet" would be a man of whom it is said that God would "put his word in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And it shall come about whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him” (v. 18-19). To say that the Messiah is God Himself is to contradict the whole point of this prophecy. For it announces that the ultimate spokesman for God is expressly not God but a human being. The New Testament says that Jesus is the one who fulfilled this prophecy (Acts 3:22; 7:37). Understandably, no Jew who believe theses Scriptures ever imagined that the baby born in Bethlehem was going to be Jehovah himself come as a human baby.
    In addition, Jehovah God says clearly that he is not a man (Numbers 23:19; Job 9:32). The converse is therefore true: if a person is a man, then he can not be God.

    On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on you as you sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that you could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden


    You join together... what Jesus said was forbidden!


    Paul
    Don't copy and paste from websites with words that are not your own without at least citing the source. That didn't even respond to the content of the post and as such merits no reply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    Jesus said My God because he does have a father God & Jesus is also God

    Gen 1:1 In the beginningH7225 GodH430 =el-o-heem' Plural of H433 ; gods

    with God & God
    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    You do know your Bible is not the word of God but a translation of the word of God... What do you know about your translation???

    John 1:1

    I have another train of thought for you think about. Is what you're reading into John 1 mostly church tradition? For almost 400 years, we have a read John 1 through the eyes of the Catholic Church. (reinforcing the Trinity). In the New Testament, “the Word” (Logos) happens to be of the masculine gender. Therefore, it's pronoun -"he" in our English translations - is a matter of interpretation, not translation. Did John write concerning “the word” that “he” was in the beginning with God or did he write concerning “the word” that “it” was in the beginning with God? As already stated, in the NT Greek the logos or word is masculine noun. It is okay in English to use “he” to refer back to his masculine noun if there is good contextual reason to do so. But is there good reason to make “the word” a “he” here?

    It is a fact that all English translations from the Greek before the King James version of 1611 actually read this way: (notice Him and He are now “It).

    Tyndale 1534:
    Joh 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde
    was God. 2 The same was in the beginnynge with God. 3 All thinges were made by it and
    with out it was made nothinge that was made. 4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of
    men

    Cranmer 1539
    John 1:1 IN the begynnynge was the worde and the worde was wyth God: and God was the
    worde. 2 The same was in the begynnyng with God. 3 All thynges were made by it and
    without it, was made nothynge that was made. 4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was the lyght of
    men

    Bishops 1568:
    Joh 1:1 In the begynnyng was the worde, & the worde was with God: and that worde was
    God. 2 The same was in the begynnyng with God. 3 All thynges were made by it: and
    without it, was made nothyng that was made. 4 In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght
    of men,

    Geneva 1587:
    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word
    was God. 2 This same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it, and
    without it was made nothing that was made. 4 In it was life, and that life was the light of
    men.

    And now our modern Concordant Literal Version:
    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the
    word. " 2 This was in the beginning toward God. 3 All came into being through it, and
    apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being." 4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men."

    The word logos appears many, many more times in this very Gospel of John. And nowhere else
    do the translators capitalize it or use the masculine personal pronoun "he" to agree with it !
    The rest of the New Testament is the same. Logos is variously translated as "statement"
    (Luke 20:20), “question" (Matt 21:24), "preaching" (1 Tim 5:17), "command" (Gal 5:14),
    "message" (Luke 4:32), "matter" (Acts 15:6), "reason" (Acts 10:29), so there is actually no reason
    to make John one say that "the Word" is the person Jesus himself, unless of course the translators
    are wanting to make a point to. In all cases logos is an “it.”
    In the light of this background it is far better to read John's prologue to mean that in the
    beginning God had a plan, a dream, a grand vision for the world, a reason by which He brought
    all things into being. This word or plan was expressive of who he is.

    "The Word" for John is an “it” not a "he." On one occasion, Jesus is given the name "the word of
    God" and this is in Revelations 19:13. This name has been given to him after his resurrection and
    ascension, but we will not find it before his birth. It is not until we come to verse 14 of John's
    prologue that this logos becomes personal and becomes the son of God, Jesus. "And the
    Word became flesh." A great plan that God had in his heart from before the creation at last is
    fulfilled. Be very clear that it does not say that God became flesh.

    There is even strong evidence suggesting that John himself reacted to those who were already
    misusing his gospel to mean that Jesus was himself the Word who had personally preexist the
    world. When later he wrote his introduction to 1 John, he clearly made the point that what was in
    the beginning was not a “who” he put it this way: "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the word of life…"

    Logos - This word is translated in English as "Word". This word has an actual meaning which has been almost completely lost due to the Greek philosophical interpretation of John 1:1-3 & 14.

    who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he
    saw. (Rev 1:2)

    "I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word (logos) of God." (Rev 20:4)

    Notice that they were beheaded for their testimony to Jesus AND for the logos of God. Jesus and the word of God are not the same thing.

    John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one (God) who judges him; the word ( logos ) I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

    Again… Jesus spoke the Logos, as He is not the Logos! So who is the Logos? The very next verse tell us!

    Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

    Jesus is not our Judge, but our savior!

    Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

    Act 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to
    men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He ( God) has fixed a day in
    which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has
    appointed
    , having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."


    Word of God in this verse means God's plan of salvation for us (NAB), i.e. the kingdom
    of God message. So what does "logos" mean?

    Logos - 1. Denotes an internal reasoning process, plan, or intention, as well as an external word. 2. The expression of thought. As embodying a conception or idea (New American Bible (footnote) & Vine’s Expository Dictionary).

    According to Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon, it also means:

    Logos - the inward thought which is expressed in the spoken word.

    I will give you a brief paraphrase of John 1:1-3 using the definitions for "logos:"

    "In the beginning was God's plan, will, or idea for our salvation. It was present in his mind, and God's plan or will possessed all the attributes of God."

    The very Trinitarian Roman Catholic New American Bible has this comment on this verse:

    "Lack of a definite article with "God" in Greek signifies predication rather than identification."

    Predication - to affirm as a quality or attribute (Webster's Dictionary).

    So how does the Word (logos) become flesh in John 1:14? Let me use an example which most of us can relate to. We are all familiar with the expression, "was this baby planned?" Let's say it was planned. You and your wife had a plan to have a baby. You had a logos, a plan. Your plan (logos) became flesh the day that your baby was born. In the same way, God's plan of salvation for us became a reality, became flesh, when Jesus was born. This verse is probably one of the biggest culprits in the creation of the trinity. The reason being that to someone educated in Greek philosophy such as the early church fathers of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th, centuries, logos had an entirely different meaning. Tertullian who was responsible for much of the creation of the trinity was a Stoic lawyer. The Stoics defined "logos" as the "divine principle of life." Which is basically a definition of God. With this definition you are going to arrive at a completely different interpretation than what John intended. You will interpret it something like this:

    "In the beginning was the divine principle of life, and the divine principle of life was with God, and the divine principle of life was God. Then, the divine principle of life became flesh."

    With this definition you arrive at the conclusion that the divine principle of life, which is God, became flesh. Now you have God's essence in two places at once. The explanation for this obvious problem came in the form of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Then you have God's essence in flesh, so the description of Jesus becomes that he is fully God and fully man. These concepts come straight out of Greek philosophy. Greek philosophers believed that man was composed of flesh and a divine spark.

    John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word ( logos ) I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

    Again… Jesus spoke the Logos, He is not the Logos!


    1Jn 1:1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life-- 2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--

    What does scripture teach you about... What was from the beginning?

    Pay attention as we need to get a little deeper comparing both John 1:1 with 1 John 1:1


    John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word." 1 John 1:1"What was from the beginning, what we have heard."

    Notice that in John what is from the beginning is the word, and in 1 John what is from the beginning is something that they heard (a message) .

    Look closely...

    1 John 2:7 - "Beloved, I am writing no new commandment to you but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard."

    In 1 John 1:1 what was from the beginning is something that they heard, here in 1 John 2:7 the old commandment is what they have had from the beginning, (sound familiar?) and the old commandment is the "WORD" that they what? Heard! The same as in 1 John 1:1.

    So, What commandment is John speaking about?

    John is speaking about what Jesus called the greatest commandment, ( Mark 12:29-30 ) the commandment of love which God gave the Hebrews from the beginning. The message of love that the proclamation of the Kingdom of God brings with it.


    How do we know for sure that this is the message and/or the commandment that they heard from the beginning? Because John tells you so in 1 John 3:11 and 1 John 3:23:

    "For this is the message you have HEARD from the BEGINNING: we should love one another."

    "And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another."

    Loving one another is how the world will know that we are followers of God’s Christ.


    John 13:30 – "This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

    According to Paul (Romans 13:9), the law of love is the fulfillment of the Mosaic Law and it is the Law in the coming Kingdom of God which the Messiah has come to proclaim. These are Jesus’ own words.

    John is talking about the message or Logos (known by you as “word”!)

    By making John 1 a Trinity support verse, you lose so much truth!



    Paul
    From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth,
    From the laziness that is content with half-truths,
    From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
    Oh God of Truth, deliver us.

    ~ Ancient Prayer

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    Over 500 post club NWL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    1 Peter 5:8 KJV
    (8) Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

    The devil seems to be given limits as to what he may and may not do, as also evidenced from the early chapters of Job (Job 1:12, 2:6), and there is precedent for God allowing evil spirits to enter where his Spirit has been withdrawn (see 1 Samuel 16:14).

    John 14:30 KJV
    (30) Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

    John 12:30-31 KJV
    (30) Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
    (31) Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

    Ephesians 2:2 KJV
    (2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

    Ephesians 6:11-12 KJV
    (11) Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
    (12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    There are plenty of references that show the devil as a prince, principality, power, and ruler presently. If the confusion is from the word "god" I cannot imagine that as being too great a difficulty.

    1 Corinthians 8:5-6 KJV
    (5) For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
    (6) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    So what is the intent of the 2 Corinthians passage?

    2 Corinthians 4:4 KJV
    (4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    There are two things being contrasted: the blindness of the god of this world on one hand; and the glorious gospel of Christ who is the image of God on the other. It seems very clear to me that "the god of this world" is Satan, the devil.



    Nor is this an unusual interpretation. I have a handful of commentaries that we can check here, including:
    Albert Barnes "There can be no doubt that Satan is here designated...";
    Adam Clarke " but who is meant by the god of this world? ... Satan."
    John Gill "Satan ... who is here styled the "god of this world"."
    Matthew Henry "They are under the influence and power of the devil, who is here called the god of this world, and elsewhere the prince of this world."
    John Wesley "The God of this world - What a sublime and horrible description of Satan!"

    In fact, I have not been able to find a single bible commentator that would identify "the god of this world" as anyone other than the Devil and Satan, so I am not sure how you are able to describe such as "unorthodox?"
    Where have I stated or argued the "god" mentioned in 2 Cor 4:4 was anyone but Satan? You've obviously been misreading this thread. Apple7 is the one denying "the god of this world" in 2 Cor 4:4 refers to Satan as the majority of Christianity understand the verse, he believes that "the god" in 2 Cor 4:4 refers to Jesus, that is the interpretation I referred to as unorthodox. I believe the "god" mentioned is speaking of Satan as you do.

    You need to be arguing against your brother in christ apple7 regarding this topic, not me, we are in agreement.
    If you cant beat them join them

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