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Thread: John 20:28 and the Trinity

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    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post

    How do you reconcile your trinity with Jesus' word of His Father is the only true God?


    I know you cannot without twisting away like you just did in above post.
    John 1:1-17, Matthew 28:18, Mattthew 18:20, Hebrews 1:8, Matthew 22:43-45, Revelation 19:16, Isaiah 9:16, Colossians 1:16, Luke 7:48, Philemon 2:10... and many more.
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    John 1:1-17, Matthew 28:18, Mattthew 18:20, Hebrews 1:8, Matthew 22:43-45, Revelation 19:16, Isaiah 9:16, Colossians 1:16, Luke 7:48, Philemon 2:10... and many more.
    You are reading all of them to harmonize with your own doctrine, not with Jesus' simple and clear statements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    You are reading all of them to harmonize with your own doctrine, not with Jesus' simple and clear statements.
    His Trinity is a bit analog to you and your right hand. A letter can be said to be written by you or your right hand. It's thus always correct to say that "the letter is written by you", however this won't reject the saying that "your right hand is part of you".

    Similarly, it's always correct to say that Jesus' Father is the only true God. This however doesn't negate the truth that Jesus is part of God's Trinity.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Hawkins For Your Post:

    6days (January 11th, 2019)

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    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    You are reading all of them to harmonize with your own doctrine, not with Jesus' simple and clear statements.
    John 10:30
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Rosenritter, I appreciate your attempt to explain your perspective, but I am not willing to agree with your view, neither willing to go down your path of thought on this. In response I will state my position. I believe that there is one being, One God, God the Father and he gave birth to and developed a son, the Son of God, a separate being, a man, our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus has now been exalted and given immortality and is seated at the right hand of God. He is still a man, and God the Father is still the only One God.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    You're lacking evidence of the items of "separate being" and "still a man" and as such you're not going to persuade myself (or likely any others) simply by restating your belief while proving that you have not considered other lines of thought. Aside from any concealment of his purpose initially, the New Testament states that Jesus is our Lord and Creator, the Old Testament links into the New Testament with confirmation that Jesus is the same LORD, and Jesus himself identifies himself with the unique titles that are only to identify the LORD.

    So the standard I am using is if in doubt, trust what God tells us directly rather than deductions based on our own theories of metaphysics. But adding to this, I have never said that I am not willing to follow your path of thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
    His Trinity is a bit analog to you and your right hand. A letter can be said to be written by you or your right hand. It's thus always correct to say that "the letter is written by you", however this won't reject the saying that "your right hand is part of you".

    Similarly, it's always correct to say that Jesus' Father is the only true God. This however doesn't negate the truth that Jesus is part of God's Trinity.
    I appreciate your analogy and have used it myself, but for the record that is not Trinity doctrine. 6days was stating Trinity doctrine more correctly with his insistence that "The Son is NOT the Father" and so on and so forth (which is one of the reasons why it breaks.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    John 10:30
    Is that the best you got?

    Of course They are one in unity.

    Jesus does everything what His Father commands Him to do.


    Do you know that Jesus says His Father is His God and His followers His brethren, His God is our God also?.


    You conveniently dismiss all Jesus' clear statements.

    sad friend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    Is that the best you got?

    Of course They are one in unity.

    Jesus does everything what His Father commands Him to do.


    Do you know that Jesus says His Father is His God and His followers His brethren, His God is our God also?.


    You conveniently dismiss all Jesus' clear statements.

    sad friend.
    The context shows that the meaning of the statement was not mere unity.

    John 10:30-33 KJV
    (30) I and my Father are one.
    (31) Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
    (32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
    (33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

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    Greetings 6days,
    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    Yes there is one God...That is Scriptural. No... That is NOT scriptural
    Here is what Scripture says
    1.“The LORD our God, the LORD is one!” Dt 6:4 (God is one)
    2. “Our Father in Heaven…” Matt. 6:9 (The Father is God)
    Yes, I agree with items 1 and 2.
    3. “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form…” Col 2:9 (Jesus, the Son, is God)
    No, Jesus is the Son of God. The fullness that was revealed in Jesus was the moral glory John 1:14, Ephesians 4:10,13. There are many Scriptures that teach that Jesus is the Son of God including the detailed explanation by Jesus of the following which most Trinitarians ignore:
    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    John 10:30
    John 10:30-36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Greetings again Rosenritter,
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    You're lacking evidence of the items of "separate being" and "still a man" and as such you're not going to persuade myself (or likely any others) simply by restating your belief while proving that you have not considered other lines of thought. Aside from any concealment of his purpose initially, the New Testament states that Jesus is our Lord and Creator, the Old Testament links into the New Testament with confirmation that Jesus is the same LORD, and Jesus himself identifies himself with the unique titles that are only to identify the LORD.

    So the standard I am using is if in doubt, trust what God tells us directly rather than deductions based on our own theories of metaphysics. But adding to this, I have never said that I am not willing to follow your path of thought.
    We most probably are in a different environment and thought process, and I am not particularly interested in following additional reasoning that you used, as the situation is difficult enough as it is. You used the word “owner” and this reminds me of the Parable of the Husbandman or Landowner in Matthew 21:33-41 where God the Father is the owner Matthew 21:40 and Jesus the Son of God is the heir Matthew 21:37-39.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    The context shows that the meaning of the statement was not mere unity.

    John 10:30-33 KJV
    (30) I and my Father are one.
    (31) Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
    (32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
    (33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
    so you take Pharisees' word over Jesus' word?

    sad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings 6days, Yes, I agree with items 1 and 2. No, Jesus is the Son of God. The fullness that was revealed in Jesus was the moral glory John 1:14, Ephesians 4:10,13. There are many Scriptures that teach that Jesus is the Son of God including the detailed explanation by Jesus of the following which most Trinitarians ignore:
    John 10:30-36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    Psalm 82 (and other passages) should define "Son of God" rather than the argument that his usage of "Son of God" means "not God." The Psalm to which he refers to identify himself as the Son of God places him as the Judge of all men that will inherit the earth.

    John 5:22 KJV
    (22) For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

    Psalms 82:8 KJV
    (8) Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

    Ecclesiastes 3:17 KJV
    (17) I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

    If you are trying to defend your stance and belief as rational, then you need to why the argument that "it says the Son of God" is invalid. Right now you are invoking circular logic, using the existence of the phrase "Son of God" as its own proof that "Son of God" means "not God." Or in other words, you are assigning your own meaning rather than letting the bible define its meaning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Rosenritter, We most probably are in a different environment and thought process, and I am not particularly interested in following additional reasoning that you used, as the situation is difficult enough as it is. You used the word “owner” and this reminds me of the Parable of the Husbandman or Landowner in Matthew 21:33-41 where God the Father is the owner Matthew 21:40 and Jesus the Son of God is the heir Matthew 21:37-39.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    Yes, that is the applicable parable, and it brings an important aspect of the "Father" and "Son" metaphor to light. The caretakers of the vineyard knew that in a future day the current son would become the current owner. That's why they killed him, hoping that there would be none to inherit the vineyard otherwise.

    In Hebrew culture, the son that represented his father's interests didn't say a son forever. He inherited the house and all its things and became the new master of the house. Jesus didn't say he was merely a servant, he said he was the Son, and that he had the same rights and privileges as the Father, even including eternal life of himself.

    Hebrews 1:4-6 KJV
    (4) Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
    (5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
    (6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    The begotten son receives the inheritance of the estate and becomes the new master. For Jesus to inherit the estate of heaven means that he is acknowledged as its rightful ruler. But if this is not the case then God did a terrible job of choosing the terms and analogies and parables to be used!

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    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    so you take Pharisees' word over Jesus' word?

    sad.
    Jesus didn't deny the charge at all, he threw fuel on the fire. Show me where Jesus ever says "I am not God" then. Because he identified himself as the LORD four times in Revelation, and the LORD identifies himself as the one who is pierced on the cross in the Old Testament.

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    Greetings again Rosenritter,
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Psalm 82 (and other passages) should define "Son of God" rather than the argument that his usage of "Son of God" means "not God." The Psalm to which he refers to identify himself as the Son of God places him as the Judge of all men that will inherit the earth.
    John 5:22 KJV For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
    Psalms 82:8 KJV Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
    Ecclesiastes 3:17 KJV I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

    If you are trying to defend your stance and belief as rational, then you need to why the argument that "it says the Son of God" is invalid. Right now you are invoking circular logic, using the existence of the phrase "Son of God" as its own proof that "Son of God" means "not God." Or in other words, you are assigning your own meaning rather than letting the bible define its meaning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Jesus didn't deny the charge at all, he threw fuel on the fire. Show me where Jesus ever says "I am not God" then. Because he identified himself as the LORD four times in Revelation, and the LORD identifies himself as the one who is pierced on the cross in the Old Testament.
    I suggest that the term “The Son of God” is not equivalent to “God” and this is part of Jesus’ summary in John 10:36 in answer to their false accusation, being an explanation of John 10:30 which they misunderstood. Another part of his answer is to quote Psalm 82:6 where the Judges are called “gods” or “Elohim”. I do not know if you have fully worked through what Jesus is saying, when he refers to this reference to the Judges, but a comparison of Exodus 21:6 KJV "judges" and some other modern translations which have "God" here, but this shows that the Judges were addressed as “Elohim”. I agree with Meshak, you seem to be aligning yourself with the Pharisees’ wrong accusation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Yes, that is the applicable parable, and it brings an important aspect of the "Father" and "Son" metaphor to light. The caretakers of the vineyard knew that in a future day the current son would become the current owner. That's why they killed him, hoping that there would be none to inherit the vineyard otherwise.

    In Hebrew culture, the son that represented his father's interests didn't say a son forever. He inherited the house and all its things and became the new master of the house. Jesus didn't say he was merely a servant, he said he was the Son, and that he had the same rights and privileges as the Father, even including eternal life of himself.

    The begotten son receives the inheritance of the estate and becomes the new master. For Jesus to inherit the estate of heaven means that he is acknowledged as its rightful ruler. But if this is not the case then God did a terrible job of choosing the terms and analogies and parables to be used!
    Jesus is the heir as he has been exalted to be both Lord and Christ. He is the Son of God. Jesus is the Lord who takes over where Adam failed Psalm 8:4-6.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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