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Thread: John 20:28 and the Trinity

  1. #496
    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Rosenritter, I appreciate your response, but perhaps you may also like to state who you believe actually appeared to Abraham in the first Scripture that you quoted.
    Genesis 18:1–3 (KJV): 1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

    I will give my assessment. Please note that Abraham saw “three men”, and he addresses one of them as “My Lord”. I suggest of the three, one was thus more prominent than the other two, and the narrative confirms this, as in the progress of the narrative two angels go to Sodom, and the third bears the title or Name “Yahweh” and Abraham stands before Him. Also there are two Beings described as Yahweh in the following, and you may like to also mention who are these two with the Name “Yahweh”?:
    Genesis 19:24–25 (KJV): 24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

    My explanation is that this is most probably an Arch Angel, possibly Michael and as God the Father’s representative, he bears the Name of Yahweh, God the Father. He is mentioned again in the following:
    Exodus 23:20–21 (KJV): 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

    So I will leave the rest of your Post until we discuss the above. Possibly you may like to state who the person is, described above.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    Kudos for exercising the self control to keep the subject short. I try for that and keep falling short.

    Genesis 18

    I would state that the LORD himself and two of his angels appeared to Abraham, these are the "three men" that Abraham serves with food and drink and water for their feet. The LORD (manifest in the flesh) stayed to talk with Abraham, and two angels (manifest in the flesh) left... and appear in Sodom at Lot's door.

    Genesis 19

    I have never seen two beings called LORD in Genesis 19, and the only time I have heard someone suggest such a thing was in Justin Martyr's "Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew" in his series of proofs from the Old Testament that Jesus was the LORD of Hosts. It did sound silly to me then, but now you (a second person) somehow got a similar impression and you're not in bad company with Justin.

    There are not two beings there in Genesis 19 and that's not the normal natural reading. For sake of argument, let me substitute someone else for the LORD in this case. I'll pick a generic comic-book X-man. So X-man is standing before Abraham, and down rains fire from the X-man from heaven upon Sodom. Nothing more is implied here than the ability to rain destruction from above while speaking with feet on the ground. This doesn't seem implausible from the X-man perspective, and God has far more power at his disposal than the Marvel Megaverse. I'm not sure why the "two person" interpretation came into play here.

    Taking this a step further, even if one were suppose that one had to physically be in heaven (like above in the atmosphere) to rain down fire from that atmosphere, God is big enough to be in more than one place at a time. I have a tiny daughter, and I can talk to her directly to her face and bring my hand about to tap her on the back all at once... even toss a soft ball into the air to land on her head "from the ceiling" without any weirdness. There's no reason for there to be more than one "YHWH" for the LORD to talk to Abraham and bring down fire from heaven at the same time. Think of his "body" (being) as being so vast that it covers the entire universe, including the earth. He can touch more than one place at a time.

    Exodus 23

    I mentioned Justin Martyr earlier; I agree with his interpretation. The word "angel" means one who brings the message of God and it can include God himself, his created angelic servants, or even men that are in his service. In this specific case the Angel is Joshua the Son of Nun, formerly called Oshea until Moses specifically changed his name in Numbers 13:16. Joshua was the messenger of God (the Angel) who went before him to lead them into the promise of the Covenant, but unlike that Greater Covenant which he foreshadowed, he would NOT forgive their transgressions. Why did God say "my name is in him?"

    Because the new name was Joshua (pronounced "Jesus" in the Greek). Justin maintained that when the LORD said "my name is in him" this was literal, the name of God concealed in the Law to be later revealed. "My name is in him" meant His name was Jesus. Are we to think that Moses changed Oshea to Joshua (Jesus) randomly? Or does this change imply that it was for a reason?

    I would say that "my name is in him" has a double meaning. The first that "my authority is placed in him" and the second being that which is seen in hindsight, "and thou shalt call his name JESUS; for he shall save his people from their sins." The first Angel (Joshua the Son of Nun) had been given the name but would not forgive their transgressions, the second Jesus shall save his people from their sins." It's a bit too clean of a parallel to be accidental, I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Can you explain to me how all things created that are in heaven and that are in earth... is a limitation of any sort?

    Furthermore, how is "whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers..." how is that a limitation?
    These are the categories that define "everything" that Jesus created.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter
    The words "whether they be" are words that especially state that even these are NOT limitations.
    Only in the sense that"all things" isn't limited to one of those categories.
    If I state; He made everything! Whether it was the main dish, the desert, the salad or the punch. Do you get a clue what context "everything" is?

    Another question for you; Jesus told us repeatedly, and Paul tells us repeatedly, God is in heaven. You think "everything in heaven" includes God?

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    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    These are the categories that define "everything" that Jesus created.
    Only in the sense that"all things" isn't limited to one of those categories.
    If I state; He made everything! Whether it was the main dish, the desert, the salad or the punch. Do you get a clue what context "everything" is?

    Another question for you; Jesus told us repeatedly, and Paul tells us repeatedly, God is in heaven. You think "everything in heaven" includes God?
    Colossians 1:16 KJV
    (16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    No, "whether they be" is not a definition of limitation, it is an inclusion of even those things that are less tangible. That far-reaching of yours has gotten a bit absurd as it fights tooth and nail against the text and context. This isn't USC Title 26. It's common language.

    Paul says that ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM (Col 1:16) and John says that ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM (John 1:3) and WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE.

    Monkeying about to try to twist a specific word backwards isn't going to change that John and Paul are both in agreement on this and state such in almost identical language.

    So you're trying a sophistry word trick now to try to make the language null by implying that it concludes that God is created? Read the language again, gospel of John fight chapter, "without him was not any thing made that was made." Jesus is the Word, the Word was God, God is the maker, not the made. It is obvious to most people possessing human intelligence that "all things were made by him" (Paul in Colossians) applies only to those things that were made.

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    Greetings again Rosenritter,
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Kudos for exercising the self control to keep the subject short. I try for that and keep falling short.
    Genesis 18
    I would state that the LORD himself and two of his angels appeared to Abraham, these are the "three men" that Abraham serves with food and drink and water for their feet. The LORD (manifest in the flesh) stayed to talk with Abraham, and two angels (manifest in the flesh) left... and appear in Sodom at Lot's door.
    I have a different perspective, partly based on how I understand John 1:18, and partly on the view that I firmly hold that there is only One God, the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. John 1:18 clearly states that “No man has seen God at any time”, and as I understand that Yahweh is the One God and this One God is God the Father, then Genesis 18 cannot be God the Father.

    I also consider that the following is saying the same as John 1:18, that no man has not seen God, and also that God dwells in heaven:
    1 Timothy 6:13–16 (KJV): 13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
    Genesis 19
    I have never seen two beings called LORD in Genesis 19, and the only time I have heard someone suggest such a thing was in Justin Martyr's "Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew" in his series of proofs from the Old Testament that Jesus was the LORD of Hosts. It did sound silly to me then, but now you (a second person) somehow got a similar impression and you're not in bad company with Justin.
    I understand this to teach that the Name-bearing Angel called upon Yahweh, God the Father to destroy Sodom by fire. I do not believe that the Angel is Jesus here, so I disagree with Justin. Apple7 may agree with Justin here, but his reasoning on Malak Yahweh is difficult to follow, as he hides behind his supposed language skills.
    Exodus 23
    The word "angel" means one who brings the message of God and it can include God himself, his created angelic servants, or even men that are in his service. In this specific case the Angel is Joshua the Son of Nun, formerly called Oshea until Moses specifically changed his name in Numbers 13:16.
    I believe that the Angel in Exodus 23 is an Arch Angel and thus an Angel who stood in the presence of Yahweh. The events and concepts of Exodus 33 speak about the presence of Yahweh compared with simply an Angel going before them. I understand the difference here being an ordinary Angel compared with an Arch Angel.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Apple7, This is hardly worth a comment. Mary was the mother of Jesus as the Scriptures that I quoted clearly state. Also you seem to have altered the details of the "challenge". If this is what your version of the Trinity claims that Mary is not the mother of Jesus, or if this is what the Trinity teaches, then the clear testimony and truth of the Scriptures overthrows the Trinity.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

    Fact: Jesus NEVER mentioned Mary as being His 'mother'.

    Fact: Mary was NEVER part of The Trinity.



    No wonder you are so confused, Trevor...

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    Isaiah 28 KJV
    10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept;line upon line, line upon line;here a little, and there a little:11 for with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;that they might go, and fall backward,


    Matthew 11 KJV

    15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    ____________________________________________

    Genesis 1 KJV

    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


    Genesis 3 KJV

    22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


    Genesis 11 KJV

    5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.


    Isaiah 6 KJV
    1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

    3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts:the whole earth is full of his glory.4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts. 6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7 and he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.


    Three/echad
    Genesis 18 KJV

    1 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 and he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 and said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: 4 let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: 5 and I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said. 6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth. 7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. 8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

    9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent. 10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. 12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also? 13 And the Lord said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? 14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son. 15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.

    16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. 17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. 22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? 26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. 27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes: 28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it. 29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty’s sake. 30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there. 31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty’s sake. 32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake. 33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.


    Numbers 6 KJV

    24 The Lord bless thee, and keep thee: 25 the Lord make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: 26 the Lord lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. 27 And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

    Isaiah 48 KJV

    16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this;I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.


    Isaiah 11 KJV

    2 and the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him,the spirit of wisdom and understanding,the spirit of counsel and might,the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;


    Isaiah 61 KJV

    1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me;because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek;he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,to proclaim liberty to the captives,and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;



    Isaiah 63 KJV

    7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord,and the praises of the Lord,according to all that the Lord hath bestowed on us,and the great goodness toward the house of Israel,which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies,and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.8 For he said, Surely they are my people,children that will not lie:so he was their Saviour.9 In all their affliction he was afflicted,and the angel of his presence saved them:in his love and in his pity he redeemed them;and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit:therefore he was turned to be their enemy,and he fought against them.

    Zechariah 12 KJV


    1The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. 2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.

    6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.

    9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.



    Matthew 28 KJV


    19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


    John 14 KJV

    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;


    John 14 KJV

    26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


    Romans 8 KJV

    26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    Ephesians 2 KJV

    18 for through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

    Ephesians 4 KJV

    4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.




    2 Corinthians 13 KJV

    14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.



    Hebrews 9 KJV

    14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


    1 John 5 KJV

    7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


    2 Corinthians 6 KJV 16 and what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people/Colossians 1 KJV . 27 to whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: /1 Corinthians 6 KJV 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?





    Ephesians 2 KJV5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved/ John 5 KJV 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. /Romans 8 KJV 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    Last edited by john w; January 10th, 2019 at 03:49 PM.
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Colossians 1:16 KJV
    (16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    No, "whether they be" is not a definition of limitation, it is an inclusion of even those things that are less tangible. That far-reaching of yours has gotten a bit absurd as it fights tooth and nail against the text and context. This isn't USC Title 26. It's common language.

    Paul says that ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM (Col 1:16)
    And Paul makes it clear the things Jesus created ARE CURRENT, and Paul clarifies/qualifies the "all things" as Thrones, principalities, powers and dominions.
    This harmonizes with ALL the rest of the Scriptures.
    Paul tells us plainly; "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, THE MAN Christ Jesus." 1 tim 2:5
    Paul tells us plainly;
    Acts 17:24-31
    24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though He be not far from every one of us: 28For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring. 29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead

    Paul was well aware, and stated several times Christ's God is the Creator of the universe.

    Jesus has created the civilization/cosmos in which you and I live.

    Your attempt to ignore VAST quantities of Scripture when you interpret Col 1, is what leads to your error.

    It's impossible for Jesus to be Jehovah...... unless you are willing to call Jesus a liar.
    If Jesus IS Jehovah, then Jesus IS the source of the words (logos) he spoke...
    John 14:1 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings (logos): and the word (logos) which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

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    Greetings again Apple7,
    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    Fact: Jesus NEVER mentioned Mary as being His 'mother'.
    Fact: Mary was NEVER part of The Trinity.
    No wonder you are so confused, Trevor...
    I do not believe in the Trinity and what has this got to do with Mary anyway? The inspired Scriptures clearly teach that Mary is the mother of Jesus. Making the text larger does not help, but seems to demonstrate your frustration and lack of reasoning. I cannot fathom your reasoning here, and your confusion is obvious to all. What is your subtle differentiation on such a claim?

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Greetings again john w,
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    Matthew 11 KJV 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
    An interesting array of verses, but I will comment on only a few.
    Genesis 1 KJV 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
    The plural “us” and “our” is God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man in their image and likeness, and man was thus made a little lower than the Angels (Elohim) as Psalm 8:5 states when commenting on and summarising the creation of man.
    Genesis 3 KJV 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
    The plural “us” here is the Angels, as the One God, the Father was in heaven.
    Genesis 11 KJV 5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
    The plural “us” here is the Angels again, as the One God, the Father was in heaven.
    Isaiah 6 KJV 1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts:the whole earth is full of his glory.4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts. 6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7 and he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
    The singular is the Lord, a vision of Jesus in glory, the “us” is the Seraphim.
    Three/echad Genesis 18 KJV
    One Archangel and two other Angels. Certainly not the Trinity here. An Angel is a messenger and speaks the message given him by God.
    Isaiah 11 KJV 2 and the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him,the spirit of wisdom and understanding,the spirit of counsel and might,the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
    This clearly shows that Jesus received these attributes, and was not born with them. Compare Luke 2:40,52.
    Isaiah 61 KJV 1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me;because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek;he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
    Again this clearly shows that Jesus received these attributes, and was not born with them. Compare Luke 2:40,52.
    Isaiah 63 KJV 7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord,and the praises of the Lord,according to all that the Lord hath bestowed on us,and the great goodness toward the house of Israel,which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies,and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.8 For he said, Surely they are my people,children that will not lie:so he was their Saviour.9 In all their affliction he was afflicted,and the angel of his presence saved them:in his love and in his pity he redeemed them;and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit:therefore he was turned to be their enemy,and he fought against them.
    Yes, this was an Angel.
    Matthew 28 KJV 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    Yes, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God and the Holy Spirit have One Name.
    1 John 5 KJV 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
    Most Trinitarian scholar recognise that this is spurious, and exclude this from modern translations with hardly a comment.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again john w, An interesting array of verses, but I will comment on only a few.The plural “us” and “our” is God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man in their image and likeness, and man was thus made a little lower than the Angels (Elohim) as Psalm 8:5 states when commenting on and summarising the creation of man.
    The plural “us” here is the Angels, as the One God, the Father was in heaven.
    The plural “us” here is the Angels again, as the One God, the Father was in heaven.
    The singular is the Lord, a vision of Jesus in glory, the “us” is the Seraphim.
    One Archangel and two other Angels. Certainly not the Trinity here. An Angel is a messenger and speaks the message given him by God.
    This clearly shows that Jesus received these attributes, and was not born with them. Compare Luke 2:40,52.
    Again this clearly shows that Jesus received these attributes, and was not born with them. Compare Luke 2:40,52.
    Yes, this was an Angel.
    Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:



    You lied-nowhere does the bible assert, teach, that man was made in the image and likeness of angels.

    "And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him,” not in the image of angels.

    Why did you lie?
    Last edited by john w; January 10th, 2019 at 02:19 PM.
    Saint John W

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    You missed it-3/echad.


    Are you drunk?
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Most Trinitarian scholar recognise that this is spurious, and exclude this from modern translations with hardly a comment.
    You lied again-no, they do not. And we see that you are a bible corrector, not believer, as are all frauds, who correct/delete/add to the book, when a word, passage does not support their "doctrine."


    As such, Col. Klink, you are dismissed, as I only debate bible believers, as you, being a bible corrector/mystic/agnostic, can "prove" anything.
    Saint John W

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    Greetings again john w,
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
    You lied-nowhere does the bible assert, teach, that man was made in the image and likeness of angels.
    Why did you lie?
    I suggest that you consider Psalm 8:5 where David summarises the creation of man and Elohim is translated as Angels. Psalm 8:1 and Psalm 8:5 thus make a distinction between the two Hebrew words Yahweh and Elohim, applying the normal word usually translated as God, Elohim, and referring this to the Angels who cooperated in the creation of man.
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    You missed it-3/echad. Are you drunk?
    Paul also was sober when he spoke the truth. The only 3 that I could read was in Genesis 18. If I wrote 3/1 what does this mean. Echad=1, not 3.
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    You lied again-no, they do not. And we see that you are a bible corrector, not believer, as are all frauds, who correct/delete/add to the book, when a word, passage does not support their "doctrine."
    As such, Col. Klink, you are dismissed, as I only debate bible believers, as you, being a bible corrector/mystic/agnostic, can "prove" anything.
    Perhaps you do not have access to Bible Commentaries. Barnes NT Notes gives a reasonable summary. This is available on Bible Hub. Are you a KJV only adherent?

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Rosenritter, I have a different perspective, partly based on how I understand John 1:18, and partly on the view that I firmly hold that there is only One God, the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. John 1:18 clearly states that “No man has seen God at any time”, and as I understand that Yahweh is the One God and this One God is God the Father, then Genesis 18 cannot be God the Father.

    I also consider that the following is saying the same as John 1:18, that no man has not seen God, and also that God dwells in heaven:
    1 Timothy 6:13–16 (KJV): 13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
    I understand this to teach that the Name-bearing Angel called upon Yahweh, God the Father to destroy Sodom by fire. I do not believe that the Angel is Jesus here, so I disagree with Justin. Apple7 may agree with Justin here, but his reasoning on Malak Yahweh is difficult to follow, as he hides behind his supposed language skills.
    I believe that the Angel in Exodus 23 is an Arch Angel and thus an Angel who stood in the presence of Yahweh. The events and concepts of Exodus 33 speak about the presence of Yahweh compared with simply an Angel going before them. I understand the difference here being an ordinary Angel compared with an Arch Angel.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    1 Timothy 6:16 refers to Christ no matter how it's diagrammed. Christ is he "who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see..." Technically this is God and Christ which are one and the same in this sense (meaning the the person and being) but even if you are thinking they are separate people (as is your inclination) the grammar does not exclude Christ.

    1 Timothy 6:13-16 KJV
    (13) I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
    (14) That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    (15) Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
    (16) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    Verse 15 and 16 might be construed to pointing back to verse 13 (blue) or verse 14 (red) for its subject, but no matter which choice is taken, it cannot exclude Christ. Christ only hath immortality.

    If that seems like a conflict maybe the problem lies in considering God and Christ (two different designations) as two different people. Obviously God has immortality, but if God and Christ (one being in reality) only hath immortality, there is no conflict.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again john w, I suggest that you consider Psalm 8:5 where David summarises the creation of man and Elohim is translated as Angels. Psalm 8:1 and Psalm 8:5 thus make a distinction between the two Hebrew words Yahweh and Elohim, applying the normal word usually translated as God, Elohim, and referring this to the Angels who cooperated in the creation of man.
    Paul also was sober when he spoke the truth. The only 3 that I could read was in Genesis 18. If I wrote 3/1 what does this mean. Echad=1, not 3.
    Perhaps you do not have access to Bible Commentaries. Barnes NT Notes gives a reasonable summary. This is available on Bible Hub. Are you a KJV only adherent?

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    No, you went off on a tangent, deceiver-the point-3/echad.

    You are drunk.

    Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
    You lied-nowhere does the bible assert, teach, that man was made in the image and likeness of angels.


    "And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him,” not in the image of angels.

    Why did you lie?
    Saint John W

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