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Thread: John 20:28 and the Trinity

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    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Apple7, I suggest that the other manuscript reading is correct, but the one you prefer does not make sense. John 1:18 clearly states that man cannot see God, and then this manuscript states that Jesus is God and reveals the Father who is God. I will leave you with this contradiction. As far as skirting the issue you have not yet revealed your great claim that will destroy my theology. Perhaps you are now running or simply hiding behind the obscurity of your “challenge”.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    Are you really presenting what you think is a genuine contradiction or are you being facetious (humorous) like 7dengo7?

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    Greetings Rosenritter,
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Are you really presenting what you think is a genuine contradiction or are you being facetious (humorous) like 7dengo7?
    I am suggesting that the meaning of John 1:18 in the KJV, RV, ASV, NKJV, Darby, YLT is simple and clear, while the NIV is confusing and contradictory. The concept of the Trinity is obscure, contradictory and ambiguous. The clear Bible teaching is that there is one God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    The clear Bible teaching is that there is one God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

    Amen!

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    Over 3000 post club Apple7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Apple7, I agree that I do not comprehend the Trinity as I believe that the Bible teaches that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.. I am still waiting for you to detail the ‘birth’ verbs, as I am not sure what you are saying here. I find it difficult to guess your reasoning here.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

    So...you admit that you are against something that you cannot even define to begin with.

    But, you agree with something that you can define.

    Why do you limit an infinite Creator?


    Further, it is your claim that Jesus was created.....thus, the onus is upon YOU to take up the challenge and actually defend your assertion....not that you can that is, as you are way too lazy to defend your claims....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Are you really presenting what you think is a genuine contradiction or are you being facetious (humorous) like 7dengo7?
    Both Trevor and 7d, abhor Biblical exegesis.

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    Over 3000 post club Apple7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings Rosenritter, I am suggesting that the meaning of John 1:18 in the KJV, RV, ASV, NKJV, Darby, YLT is simple and clear, while the NIV is confusing and contradictory. The concept of the Trinity is obscure, contradictory and ambiguous. The clear Bible teaching is that there is one God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

    'suggest' all you want....you have no exegetical reasoning other than that pulled from your glutes...

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    Greetings again Apple7,
    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    The challenge put forth to you, that you completely and utterly ignored, was to show us the 'birth' verbs employed for YOU, verses HIM.
    Don't skirt the issue, as it will utterly destroy your theology...
    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    So...you admit that you are against something that you cannot even define to begin with. But, you agree with something that you can define. Why do you limit an infinite Creator? Further, it is your claim that Jesus was created.....thus, the onus is upon YOU to take up the challenge and actually defend your assertion....not that you can that is, as you are way too lazy to defend your claims....
    I am still waiting for you to state from the Bible the ‘birth’ verbs, but you demand that I guess your particular line of thought here. I have continually stated how I believe that Jesus came into existence. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit coming upon Mary his mother, and the result of this conception and birth was that God the Father was his father Luke 1:34-35, Matthew 1:20-21, John 1:14, and thus by conception and birth Jesus is the Son of God. This process could be described as a New Creation, but unlike the first creation, Jesus was not made directly from the dust, but by a creative act upon the womb of Mary. The above is my response to your "challenge" and may not be what you want, so again please show me your reasoning and explanation, especially seeing that it "will utterly destroy my theology", and I wait with great anticipation. Do you want me to add music, and a drum roll?

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings Rosenritter, I am suggesting that the meaning of John 1:18 in the KJV, RV, ASV, NKJV, Darby, YLT is simple and clear, while the NIV is confusing and contradictory. The concept of the Trinity is obscure, contradictory and ambiguous. The clear Bible teaching is that there is one God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    I don't disagree with any specific statement there above, but I suspect that your idea of "simple and clear" meaning of John 1:18 may differ from my "simple and clear" meaning of John 1:18.

    John 1:18 KJV
    (18) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    Exodus 33:11 KJV
    (11) And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

    Exodus 33:18-23 KJV
    (18) And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
    (19) And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
    (20) And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
    (21) And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
    (22) And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
    (23) And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

    According to Exodus, Moses did see God in more than one fashion. Both "face to face, as one would speak to a friend" and "the glory of the LORD" as in "and thou shalt see my back parts." Additionally we have Abraham who received the LORD and his angels and served them food and drink and washed their feet. So what does Jesus mean when he says that no man has seen God at any time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    What is the name of your demon?
    I don't get it. Oh, wait...yes, I do get it! I do! You're just beside yourself because you're itching to turn around and accuse me of being Satan, yet you're sharp enough to understand how your doing that must needs backfire loudly against your mantra of "Satan was bound at The Cross". So, in the service of that peculiar error which you promote against the Bible, and against Trinitarian Bible believers, you are constrained to NOT accuse me of being Satan. And, of course, I (in case you couldn't tell) don't really think that you are Satan, inasmuch as you never once have given off even the least little bit of appearance of being an angel of light throughout the whole of your performance of trying to salvage your error against the Bible and reason.

    But, you just have to say SOMETHING--anything you can cough up at a moment's notice!--in the way of trying to disparage me, since you have nothing Scriptural or rational to say against the mass of criticism I've leveled against your error, and that angers you. So, this is what you've come up with to say to me:

    "What is the name of your demon?"

    Now, if I were willing to conduct myself in the same, juvenile manner in which you are conducting yourself, I could just as easily rejoin by simply saying, to you:

    "What is the name of your demon?"

    So, for the sake of argument, imagine if I were to say, to you, "What is the name of your demon?", and consider exactly how you would respond to that, and then consider just how silly and useless a thing it is for you to have said, to me, "What is the name of your demon?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Apple7, I am still waiting for you to state from the Bible the ‘birth’ verbs, but you demand that I guess your particular line of thought here. I have continually stated how I believe that Jesus came into existence. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit coming upon Mary his mother, and the result of this conception and birth was that God the Father was his father Luke 1:34-35, Matthew 1:20-21, John 1:14, and thus by conception and birth Jesus is the Son of God. This process could be described as a New Creation, but unlike the first creation, Jesus was not made directly from the dust, but by a creative act upon the womb of Mary. The above is my response to your "challenge" and may not be what you want, so again please show me your reasoning and explanation, especially seeing that it "will utterly destroy my theology", and I wait with great anticipation. Do you want me to add music, and a drum roll?

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    Mary is not mentioned as being Jesus' 'mother' in any of those passages.

    Further, Its the 'Power' of the Most High....NOT the 'Power' of the Holy Spirit...as the Holy Spirit IS The 'Power'.

    Learn the Trinity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    So...you admit that you are against something that you cannot even define to begin with.
    The trinity is a ludicrous mishmash of Greek Philosphy and a tiny handful of verses that merely are worded so the trinity MIGHT fit .... if you ignore the context, and the rest of the Scriptures.
    NO ONE can define the trinity, since it defies Scripture, God's Creation, is pure fiction, and it contradicts itself.
    Your remark is like saying "how can you deny the Star wars FORCE, since you can't define it"!

    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7
    But, you agree with something that you can define.
    I agree with the God of Scripture, and the Jesus of Scripture ..... and the trinty is NEVER stated, explained or preached to ANY audience in the Scriptures.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7
    Why do you limit an infinite Creator?
    He defines Himself. He instructs us to read His words, and to look at His Creation. The trinity isn't mentioned in the Scriptures, and contradicts both the Scriptures, and God's Creation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7
    Further, it is your claim that Jesus was created.....thus, the onus is upon YOU to take up the challenge and actually defend your assertion...
    Col 1:15 STATES that Jesus is "the firstborn of every .... CREATURE". Creature is translated from the Greek Ktisis, meaning "thing created".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    The trinity is a ludicrous mishmash of Greek Philosphy and a tiny handful of verses that merely are worded so the trinity MIGHT fit .... if you ignore the context, and the rest of the Scriptures.
    NO ONE can define the trinity, since it defies Scripture, God's Creation, is pure fiction, and it contradicts itself.
    Your remark is like saying "how can you deny the Star wars FORCE, since you can't define it"!

    I agree with the God of Scripture, and the Jesus of Scripture ..... and the trinty is NEVER stated, explained or preached to ANY audience in the Scriptures.
    He defines Himself. He instructs us to read His words, and to look at His Creation. The trinity isn't mentioned in the Scriptures, and contradicts both the Scriptures, and God's Creation.

    Col 1:15 STATES that Jesus is "the firstborn of every .... CREATURE". Creature is translated from the Greek Ktisis, meaning "thing created".
    I don't think anyone is suggesting that "creature" is anything but that created, so what's the point of your protest? Are you suggesting that this is a literal statement, that Jesus was literally the born of every created creature? So Jesus is Cain, and Isaac, and Esau, and many more?

    Because otherwise "the firstborn of every creature" is a reference to the Creator and the Lamb.

    First: "For by him were all things created" necessarily means that he is not created but the creator, of which we have one creator, even God,

    Second: and in the other sense he is the firstborn in that he is the firstborn from the dead, that there he went before us to prove that he has the power of death and hell, as in the following verse 18, "the firstborn from the dead.'

    Colossians 1:18 KJV
    (18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Nowhere in the text that you have provided does it say Jesus was a creation. That's something you're creating and reading into the text. It says the opposite, that he is the creator. And as corroboration from a second witness, John agrees and confirms Paul that "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

    John 1:1-3 KJV
    (1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    (2) The same was in the beginning with God.
    (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Colossians 1:14-16 KJV
    (14) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
    (15) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    (16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Third: and finally, Jesus is also the firstborn of every creature because by inheritance he has a more excellent name than every thing that is created. The Creator naturally has rank and privilege over the created. In this application his inheritance is likened to the tradition of the firstborn.

    Hebrews 1:4-6 KJV
    (4) Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
    (5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
    (6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    You may go back to arguing against Trinity doctrine with Apple, but you should refrain from claiming Colossians designates Jesus as a created creature, as it does quite the opposite, establishing him as the Creator of all creatures. From your position you would do better arguing to have the text excluded.

    Adam Clarke Commentary, Col 1:15
    The first-born of every creature - I suppose this phrase to mean the same as that, Phi_2:9 : God hath given him a name which is above every name; he is as man at the head of all the creation of God; nor can he with any propriety be considered as a creature, having himself created all things, and existed before any thing was made. If it be said that God created him first, and that he, by a delegated power from God, created all things, this is most flatly contradicted by the apostle’s reasoning in the 16th and 17th verses.

    As the Jews term Jehovah בכורו של עולם becoro shel olam, the first-born of all the world, or of all the creation, to signify his having created or produced all things; (see Wolfius in loc.) so Christ is here termed, and the words which follow in the 16th and 17th verses are the proof of this. The phraseology is Jewish; and as they apply it to the supreme Being merely to denote his eternal pre-existence, and to point him out as the cause of all things; it is most evident that St. Paul uses it in the same way, and illustrates his meaning in the following words, which would be absolutely absurd if we could suppose that by the former he intended to convey any idea of the inferiority of Jesus Christ.
    It is a Jewish phrase used to designate the Supreme Eternal Creator. Far from saying what you wanted it to say, the whole passage and especially the phrase you targeted destroys your interpretation. Do you have something against Jesus, some character flaw of which would make him unsuitable for you to be honestly glad that He is the judge upon the throne, that He is your creator?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    I don't think anyone is suggesting that "creature" is anything but that created, so what's the point of your protest? Are you suggesting that this is a literal statement, that Jesus was literally the born of every created creature? So Jesus is Cain, and Isaac, and Esau, and many more?

    Because otherwise "the firstborn of every creature" is a reference to the Creator and the Lamb.
    Jesus is a created being. Jesus is the firstborn from the dead to eternal life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter
    First: "For by him were all things created" necessarily means that he is not created but the creator, of which we have one creator, even God,
    Wrong.
    Jesus IS the creator of the civilization (Cosmos) following his ministry. Every throne, dominion, principality and power in heaven, and on earth, was forever altered by Jesus through his obedience to his God.
    Jesus is NOT the Creator of the universe, his God Jehovah/YHVH is that Creator. Jesus was created BY his God causing Mary to conceive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter
    Second: and in the other sense he is the firstborn in that he is the firstborn from the dead, that there he went before us to prove that he has the power of death and hell, as in the following verse 18, "the firstborn from the dead.'
    Absolutely. THAT is the sense in which Jesus is the FIRST creature that has been born into eternal life. In fact, Jesus is the ONLY creature born into eternal life ...... so far. All the righteous are waiting for his 2nd coming, and the resurrection/change to eternal life.

    Quote Originally Posted by RosenRitter
    Third: and finally, Jesus is also the firstborn of every creature because by inheritance he has a more excellent name than every thing that is created.
    Yep, Jesus inherited the promises given by his God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Jesus is a created being. Jesus is the firstborn from the dead to eternal life.

    Wrong.
    Jesus IS the creator of the civilization (Cosmos) following his ministry. Every throne, dominion, principality and power in heaven, and on earth, was forever altered by Jesus through his obedience to his God.
    Jesus is NOT the Creator of the universe, his God Jehovah/YHVH is that Creator. Jesus was created BY his God causing Mary to conceive.
    Absolutely. THAT is the sense in which Jesus is the FIRST creature that has been born into eternal life. In fact, Jesus is the ONLY creature born into eternal life ...... so far. All the righteous are waiting for his 2nd coming, and the resurrection/change to eternal life.

    Yep, Jesus inherited the promises given by his God.
    You should try responding the the elements of the post rather than just repeating your own assertions against the words and evidence. Scripture tells us he created all things, all things that were created, all things that were made, without him was nothing made that was made, and you seem to think that your flat-out denial is sufficient. The Jews have their meaning for the term "firstborn of creation" but you invent your own separate meaning. If you are going to ignore the clarification and description from scripture and invent your own word meanings why bother? You aren't going to persuade someone else like this.
    Last edited by Rosenritter; January 9th, 2019 at 06:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    .. and the trinty is NEVER stated, explained or preached to ANY audience in the Scriptures.
    He defines Himself. He instructs us to read His words, and to look at His Creation. The trinity isn't mentioned in the Scriptures, and contradicts both the Scriptures, and God's Creation.

    He also instructs us not to correct His scripture, like you do, bible corrector.

    Check.

    So, one of your your "arguments," against the Trinity, is that the word is not mentioned.


    Fine.Neither is the word "Atheism"(Psalms 14:1 KJV, Psalms 53:1 KJV....), neither is the word "divinity"(Psalms 139 KJV), "incarnation"(John 1:1 KJV, John 1:14 KJV), monotheism(Isaiah 43:10 KJV, Isaiah 44:10 KJV),.....................................but the concepts are.


    There are scores of biblical concepts that many believe, not having a specific word describing them used in the Bible. "Bible" is a word, not found in scriptures-"book" is. And? "omniscience," "omnipotence," "omnipresence"-words not found in the Bible either, but we use them to describe the attributes of God.


    Give us a real argument, not a kindergarten routine.

    Come to think of it...


    Philippians 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
    I

    Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    Show us your name in the book of life....
    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Col 1:15 STATES that Jesus is "the firstborn of every .... CREATURE". Creature is translated from the Greek Ktisis, meaning "thing created".
    You assert firstborn to mean the “first created.”

    1 Samuel 16 KJV
    10 Again, Jesse made seven of his sons to pass before Samuel. And Samuel said unto Jesse, The Lord hath not chosen these. 11 And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither.

    1 Samuel 17 KJV
    12 Now David was the son of that Ephrathite of Beth-lehem-judah, whose name was Jesse; and he had eight sons: and the man went among men for an old man in the days of Saul. 13 And the three eldest sons of Jesse went and followed Saul to the battle: and the names of his three sons that went to the battle were Eliab the firstborn, and next unto him Abinadab, and the third Shammah. 14 And David was the youngest: and the three eldest followed Saul.

    Psalm 89 KJV
    Maschil of Ethan the Ezrahite.

    1 I will sing of the mercies of the Lord for ever:with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever:thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.3 I have made a covenant with my chosen,I have sworn unto David my servant,4 thy seed will I establish for ever,and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah. 5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord:thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord?who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord?7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints,and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.8 O Lord God of hosts, who is a strong Lord like unto thee?or to thy faithfulness round about thee? 9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them. 10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain;thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm. 11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine:as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them. 12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name. 13 Thou hast a mighty arm:strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand. 14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face. 15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound:they shall walk, O Lord, in the light of thy countenance.16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day:and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.
    17 For thou art the glory of their strength:and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.18 For the Lord is our defence;and the Holy One of Israel is our king. 19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one,and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.20 I have found David my servant;with my holy oil have I anointed him:21 with whom my hand shall be established:mine arm also shall strengthen him.22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.23 And I will beat down his foes before his face,and plague them that hate him.24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him:and in my name shall his horn be exalted.25 I will set his hand also in the sea,and his right hand in the rivers.26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
    27 Also I will make him my firstborn,higher than the kings of the earth.

    David was the last one born in his family, the youngest son of Jesse, and yet the LORD God calls him "my firstborn."

    Jeremiah 31 KJV

    9 They shall come with weeping,and with supplications will I lead them:I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way,wherein they shall not stumble:for I am a father to Israel,and Ephraim is my firstborn.

    Exodus 4 KJV
    22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:


    Ephraim is called the LORD God's “firstborn,” although Manasseh, Ephraim’s older brother, was the “firstborn” per the Exodus context/definition of the first that comes from the womb, whether of man or beast-"biologically."



    Genesis 48 KJV
    14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim’s head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh’s head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.

    Genesis 48 KJV

    19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

    =primacy, not point of origin




    Colossians 1 KJV
    15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 and he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;


    "firstborn" is an adjective, not a noun, andisnot speaking of physical, "biological" birth. This is reference to the Lord JesusChrist's position to inherit the creation. In Jewish law, the firstborn inherited the major portion of his father's estate. Thus, the Lord Jesus Christis to inherit the creation-it has NADA to do with being "created."

    Paul explains additionally, what he means by the phrase “the firstborn of every creature," in v 18.

    =indicating that he is the first of a new group “the head the body," which is the boc, so that he may have first place in everything, the first fruits, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 KJV,as verse 23 states,"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming." And Paul is referring to the Lord Jesus Christ's resurrection, and He being the first one to receive a glorified resurrection body.


    That is the context.

    Revelation 3 KJV
    14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

    =the origin of the creation of God, not its first "production."
    Last edited by john w; January 10th, 2019 at 10:12 AM.
    Saint John W

  20. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to john w For Your Post:

    7djengo7 (January 9th, 2019),glorydaz (January 9th, 2019)

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