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Thread: John 20:28 and the Trinity

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    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post
    The very context of 2 Cor 4:4 contradicts your claim that Jesus is here being referred to as ho thoes since in the latter part of the very same verse Christ is identified, not as ho thoes, but as the image of the God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    Where is Satan mentioned?

    He's not.
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because Satan isn't mentioned along with the reference of ho theos in 2 Cor 4 doesn't mean that it isn't regarding him.

    Where is Satan ever directly referenced as being the ruler of the world? Yet I'm sure if I asked who the ruler of the world is in such verses as John 14:30 you'd state it was Satan. Poor reasoning.

    Contextually, the epithets contained within 2 Cor 4, including Theos, relate to Jesus…not to Satan.
    Contextually, Christ is referred to being the image of the God according to 2 Cor 4:4, thus excluding him from being Theos, this is irrefutable.
    If you cant beat them join them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    Outside of 2 Cor 4.4, the only other inflections of ‘blinded’ (i.e. etyphlōsen & etyphlōken), used in the entire NT, are located in John 12, and 1 John 2, and have Jesus as the subject:

    • John 12 records that Isaiah wrote about Jesus, ‘The Arm of God’, ‘His Glory’ as blinding the thoughts of the unbelievers.

    • 1 John 2 records without Jesus’ light, the unbelievers are blinded.



    It is most interesting that you completely IGNORE John's recording of what Isaiah had to say regarding Jesus, The Arm of God, God, Himself, when He purposefully blinds whom He will.
    God often speaks of doing things himself when in fact he is prophetically stating what will take place. God does not infringe on people's freewill especially in cases where he it proving his sovereignty, yet God made clear statements that HE hardened Pharaoh heart when we know this would actually be contrary to Gods way and working against himself. Likewise, by what is said in Isaiah 6:9,10 God is claiming he will literally harden the hearts of people but rather its God prophetically explaining that his actions to lead his people will fall on deaf ears and unresponsive people.

    I think the apostle Paul would agree with me and disagree with you on this one, he did not see the reference of Isaiah 6:10 as claim that God literally blinds the minds of ones whom he actually wants to serve him, since God wants all people turn around from sin and worship him. God does not work against himself, this is something Paul clearly understood.

    (Acts 28:23-27) "..They now arranged for a day to meet with him...from morning to evening, he explained the matter to them ...to persuade them about Jesus... Some began to believe the things he said; others would not believe. 25 So because they disagreed with one another, they began to leave, and Paul made this one comment: “The holy spirit aptly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your forefathers, 26 saying, ‘Go to this people and say: “You will indeed hear but by no means understand, and you will indeed look but by no means see. 27 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn back and I [Jehovah] heal them..”

    Paul clearly stated they were the ones who blinded themselves and deafened themselves as they were unresponsive due to their lack of stubbornness.

    Again, to claim that God blinds people goes against his very nature and his actions for people to preach to all persons and would mean that God works against himself.

    (2 Peter 3:9) "..the Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.."
    If you cant beat them join them

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    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because Satan isn't mentioned along with the reference of ho theos in 2 Cor 4 doesn't mean that it isn't regarding him.
    As stated before, and, of which, you continue to ignore, context is king.

    2 Cor describes a plethora of epithets for Jesus, not Satan.

    Word of God
    The Truth
    Glory of Christ
    Image of God
    Christ Jesus as Lord
    Glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ
    etc, etc, etc.



    Where is Satan mentioned?

    That's correct...nowhere.


    Furthermore, 2 Cor 4 quotes Isaiah and the Psalms, and these OT passages contain nothing regarding Satan.

    So...again you have nothing.




    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post
    Where is Satan ever directly referenced as being the ruler of the world? Yet I'm sure if I asked who the ruler of the world is in such verses as John 14:30 you'd state it was Satan. Poor reasoning.
    Rev 1.5 further proves that Satan was bound at The Cross, when it declares Jesus as being the Ruler of the earth due to His blood which released us from our sins.

    Scripture prior to The Cross mentions, repeatedly, that Satan is the Ruler.




    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post
    Contextually, Christ is referred to being the image of the God according to 2 Cor 4:4, thus excluding him from being Theos, this is irrefutable.
    As the God-man, no scripture thwarts that Jesus is God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post
    God often speaks of doing things himself when in fact he is prophetically stating what will take place. God does not infringe on people's freewill especially in cases where he it proving his sovereignty, yet God made clear statements that HE hardened Pharaoh heart when we know this would actually be contrary to Gods way and working against himself. Likewise, by what is said in Isaiah 6:9,10 God is claiming he will literally harden the hearts of people but rather its God prophetically explaining that his actions to lead his people will fall on deaf ears and unresponsive people.

    I think the apostle Paul would agree with me and disagree with you on this one, he did not see the reference of Isaiah 6:10 as claim that God literally blinds the minds of ones whom he actually wants to serve him, since God wants all people turn around from sin and worship him. God does not work against himself, this is something Paul clearly understood.

    (Acts 28:23-27) "..They now arranged for a day to meet with him...from morning to evening, he explained the matter to them ...to persuade them about Jesus... Some began to believe the things he said; others would not believe. 25 So because they disagreed with one another, they began to leave, and Paul made this one comment: “The holy spirit aptly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your forefathers, 26 saying, ‘Go to this people and say: “You will indeed hear but by no means understand, and you will indeed look but by no means see. 27 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn back and I [Jehovah] heal them..”

    Paul clearly stated they were the ones who blinded themselves and deafened themselves as they were unresponsive due to their lack of stubbornness.

    Again, to claim that God blinds people goes against his very nature and his actions for people to preach to all persons and would mean that God works against himself.

    (2 Peter 3:9) "..the Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.."

    Scripture speaks for itself.

    Let it speak.

    In lieu of this, you completely skip over John 12 in favor of your own diversionary dialogue.

    Let's show you, first-hand the passages that you thought best to utterly ignore...


    John 12.35 - 41

    Then Jesus said to them, Yet a little while the Light is with you. Walk while you have the Light, that darkness not overtake you. And the one walking in the darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the Light, believe into the Light, that you may become sons of Light. Jesus spoke these things, and going away He was hidden from them. But though He had done so many miraculous signs before them, they did not believe into Him,so that the Word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he said, "Lord, who has believed our report? And the arm of the Lord, to whom was it revealed?" Isa. 53:1 Because of this they could not believe, because Isaiah said again, "He has blinded their eyes" and "has hardened their heart," "that they might not see with the eyes" and "understand with the heart," "and be converted," "and I should heal them." Isa. 6:10 Isaiah said these things when he saw His glory, and spoke about Him.


    So...

    Look at what you just missed.

    John directly quotes Isaiah, of which declares that Yahweh, THE ARM OF THE LORD, has blinded the eyes and hearts of the people.

    Jesus tells you in this passage that it is about HIM, the Arm of God, whom Isaiah saw and wrote about as blinding the eyes and hearts of people.


    This is doubly confirmed in the quoted passage from Isaiah, that you failed to quote...



    Who has believed our report? And to whom is the arm of Yahweh revealed? Isa 53.1




    Isaiah 6


    In the year that King Uzziah died, then I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up. And His train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphs. Each one had six wings; with two he covered his face; and with two he covered his feet; and with two he flew. And one cried to the other and said, Holy, holy, holy is Yahweh of Hosts; all the earth is full of His glory!
    And the doorposts shook from the voice of the one who cried; and the house was filled with smoke. Then I said, Woe is me! For I am cut off; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I live amongst a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, Yahweh of Hosts. Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, snatched with tongs from the altar. And he touched it on my mouth, and said, See, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away, and your sin is covered. And I heard the voice of Yahweh, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us? Then I said, Behold me. Send me! And He said, Go and say to this people, Hearing you hear, but do not understand; and seeing you see, but do not know. Make the heart of this people fat, and make his ears heavy, and shut his eyes, that he not see with his eyes, and hear with his ears, and understand with his heart, and turn back, and one heals him. Then I said, Until when, O Lord? And He said, Until cities lie desolate without one living in them, and the houses without man, and the land is laid waste, a desolation; and until Jehovah has sent mankind far away, and the desolation in the midst of the land is great. But yet a tenth shall be in it, and it shall return and be consumed like the terebinth and like the oak that in being felled yet has its stump (the holy seed is its stump).


    So....no, Satan does not have the power to blind the hearts and minds of the people...but Jesus, as God, most certainly does...

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    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post
    If this is the case then to say that Jesus is the ho theos in 2 Cor 4:4 goes contrary to what you just said.
    Jesus is referred to as Theos in several scriptures.





    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post
    The verse states the ho thoes, namely Jesus in your eyes, blinded the minds of unbelievers, yet your claim is that "it is the darkness void left without Jesus' Light that blinds a person". Jesus not allowing his light to shine on an already blind person is very different to actively blinding individuals as 2 Cor 4:4 expresses.
    There is no difference.




    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post
    Only Satan is described as actively deceiving and misleading people from Christ, not Christ himself.
    Not after The Cross.

    You can't seem to wrap your mind around what actually occurred at The Cross.

    Satan was bound at The Cross.

    This is the BIG EVENT.

    Knowing this, you must re-program your jaded JW thinking.


    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post
    So? Does this mean mean that you accept what I said in regards 1 John 5 or Eph 2? I think not.
    Why would it?


    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post
    Where does it state Satan was bound at the cross, again this is your false assumption.
    An easier question would be, 'where does it not?'


    Heb 2.14

    επει ουν τα παιδια κεκοινωνηκεν αιματος και σαρκος και αυτος παραπλησιως μετεσχεν των αυτων ινα δια του θανατου καταργηση τον το κρατος εχοντα του θανατου τουτ εστιν τον διαβολον

    epei oun ta paidia kekoinōnēken haimatos kai sarkos kai autos paraplēsiōs meteschen tōn autōn hina dia tou thanatou katargēsē ton to kratos echonta tou thanatou tout' estin ton diabolon

    Since, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, in like manner He Himself also shared the same things, that through death He might render entirely idle the one having the power of death, that is, the devil;


    Pretty clear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post
    The original point made wasn't about if Satan did or did not have power over believers, but rather, if he was was the one mentioned as the "ho theos" in 2 Cor 4:4 who was actively blinding unbelievers.

    It would go without saying that if the Devil had no power of Jesus when he came to earth, that he would have no power over Jesus followers either since Jesus protects them, I have no issue with this and never claimed otherwise.
    Then why do you insist on posting scripture of your own attempting to show otherwise?



    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post
    Where does scripture state Jesus was bound?
    Who, but you, ever made that claim?



    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post
    What do you personally mean when you say Satan was bound.
    Rendered impotent, per scripture.





    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post
    Where does it reflect that in the scripture? I don't see it saying anywhere that Satan was not present, that the power referred to the influence that Satan had or that the "spirit" (singular) mentioned referred to evil spirits.
    As a JW cult follower, when have you ever seriously bothered to study scripture in the first place?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    As stated before, and, of which, you continue to ignore, context is king.

    2 Cor describes a plethora of epithets for Jesus, not Satan.

    Word of God
    The Truth
    Glory of Christ
    Image of God
    Christ Jesus as Lord
    Glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ
    etc, etc, etc.



    Where is Satan mentioned?

    That's correct...nowhere.


    Furthermore, 2 Cor 4 quotes Isaiah and the Psalms, and these OT passages contain nothing regarding Satan.

    So...again you have nothing.



    No mention of satan in John 14 either

    still satan
    Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.



    Rev 1.5 further proves that Satan was bound at The Cross, when it declares Jesus as being the Ruler of the earth due to His blood which released us from our sins.



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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post


    No mention of satan in John 14 either

    still satan
    Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.







    John 14 is pre-Cross scripture.

    Read before replying...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    John 14 is pre-Cross scripture.

    Read before replying...
    I read , I laughed , good luck with that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because Satan isn't mentioned along with the reference of ho theos in 2 Cor 4 doesn't mean that it isn't regarding him.

    Where is Satan ever directly referenced as being the ruler of the world? Yet I'm sure if I asked who the ruler of the world is in such verses as John 14:30 you'd state it was Satan. Poor reasoning.
    I can think of a few places where devils are referred to as princes (rulers) of this world.

    Daniel 10:20 KJV
    (20) Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

    So is the being speaking to Daniel fighting with a human prince of Persia and a human prince of Grecia? It seems more likely that these spirit beings are speaking of other spirits, and that these are the true rulers behind these powers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    As stated before, and, of which, you continue to ignore, context is king.

    2 Cor describes a plethora of epithets for Jesus, not Satan.

    Word of God
    The Truth
    Glory of Christ
    Image of God
    Christ Jesus as Lord
    Glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ
    etc, etc, etc.


    Where is Satan mentioned?

    That's correct...nowhere.
    And where does it mention as Satan as the ruler of the earth in Eph 2:2, John 14:30 or John 16:11? Tell me Bowman, who is the unidentified ruler in these verses, answer please.

    You run from reasoning, just because Satan is not outright identified in 2 Cor 4:4 does not mean it is not him. Your argument of absences of evidence as evidence of absence is world renown to be a fools argument.

    Furthermore, 2 Cor 4 quotes Isaiah and the Psalms, and these OT passages contain nothing regarding Satan.

    So...again you have nothing.
    This, again, is poor reasoning. Firstly, just because a chapter of scripture has references of the OT does not mean one can pick and choose where the OT relate on a whim. Show us exactly where it is stated in 2 Cor 4 that the OT references links to the ho theos in 2 Cor 4:4.

    Less you not forget, your poistion here that Jesus is the ho theos of 2 Cor 4:4 is wholly unorthodox and is not supported by the exegesis of most, if not all the scholarly community.

    Rev 1.5 further proves that Satan was bound at The Cross, when it declares Jesus as being the Ruler of the earth due to His blood which released us from our sins.

    Scripture prior to The Cross mentions, repeatedly, that Satan is the Ruler.
    Rev 1:5 states that Jesus is the ruler of the kings of the earth, Jesus at the time of the prophecy did not have complete control of heaven or the earth, this can be clearly seen by Rev 12:9-12 that states a battle is/was to be fought in heaven and that the Devil himself was cast down to earth along with his angels and that he is the one misleading the entire world. This verse alone destroys your entire argument of Satan being bound and ONLY his evil spirits having power.

    (Revelation 12:9-12) "..So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him...be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you..”
    If you cant beat them join them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    I can think of a few places where devils are referred to as princes (rulers) of this world.

    Daniel 10:20 KJV
    (20) Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

    So is the being speaking to Daniel fighting with a human prince of Persia and a human prince of Grecia? It seems more likely that these spirit beings are speaking of other spirits, and that these are the true rulers behind these powers.
    There is only one Devil my fried, Rev 12:9.

    (Revelation 12:9) "..So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, [SIZE=5the one called Devil and Satan[/SIZE]], who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him...

    As you know doubt aware, "Prince", at times, is simply another name for Angel/spirit, both good and bad angels/spirits can be referred to as princes.
    If you cant beat them join them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    Scripture speaks for itself.

    Let it speak.

    In lieu of this, you completely skip over John 12 in favor of your own diversionary dialogue.

    Let's show you, first-hand the passages that you thought best to utterly ignore...


    John 12.35 - 41


    So...

    Look at what you just missed.

    John directly quotes Isaiah, of which declares that Yahweh, THE ARM OF THE LORD, has blinded the eyes and hearts of the people.

    Jesus tells you in this passage that it is about HIM, the Arm of God, whom Isaiah saw and wrote about as blinding the eyes and hearts of people.

    This is doubly confirmed in the quoted passage from Isaiah, that you failed to quote...

    Who has believed our report? And to whom is the arm of Yahweh revealed? Isa 53.1



    Isaiah 6
    This was not missed. As I said before, God was prophetically announcing that the nation he was trying to lead would disregard his efforts. The example I gave of this was that of Pharaohs heart being hardened. This understanding is readily accepted in the scholarly community, again, your literal interpretation of this verse is the unorthodox one here, not mine.

    So....no, Satan does not have the power to blind the hearts and minds of the people...but Jesus, as God, most certainly does...
    Then how is it possible Satan is misleading the entire inhabited earth as Rev 12:9-12 clearly shows?
    If you cant beat them join them

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    Quote Originally Posted by NWL
    If this is the case then to say that Jesus is the ho theos in 2 Cor 4:4 goes contrary to what you just said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    Jesus is referred to as Theos in several scriptures.
    Our conversation so far has been about whether Jesus is the one referred to as ho thoes in 2 Cor 4:4, not once have I even mentioned or denied that he isn't referred to as thoes in other scripture. So your comment above is a little pointless.

    There is no difference.
    How can I even reason with such a silly comment, are you being serious? You're telling me there is no difference in Jesus actively blinding an individual who isn't blind compared to him not giving sight to an already blind person? There is a clear active action, namely, to blind, compared to a non-action.

    How do you actually expect people to believe you in regards to the big claims when the small claims you make only make you look foolish.


    Not after The Cross.

    You can't seem to wrap your mind around what actually occurred at The Cross.

    Satan was bound at The Cross.

    This is the BIG EVENT.

    Knowing this, you must re-program your jaded JW thinking.
    Ah yes, the typical put me down along with "I couldn't possibly comprehend the stuff that took place at the cross" and your lack of an answer isn't a clear sign you have no proof that Satan was bound at the cross or that you can even show what your claiming.

    When ready to show me this "apparent" teaching I'll be here Bowman.

    An easier question would be, 'where does it not?'

    Heb 2.14

    Since, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, in like manner He Himself also shared the same things, that through death He might render entirely idle the one having the power of death, that is, the devil;

    Pretty clear.
    Where does it say in this passage, or any passage, that Satan was bound at the cross?

    Jesus death led to Satan being brought to nothing since he sacrifice opened up the way for people to be saved. Satan was the one who caused death to enter in to the world, through Adam, and is labelled a murderer because of it.

    (John 8:44) "..You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began.."

    (1 John 3:8) "..The one who practices sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning.."


    So again, Jesus death brought Satan, the one who is the original sinner and originator of death, to nothing at the cross as he opened up the way for all to be saved. Without Jesus sacrifice we would be doomed to the sin and death Satan caused. Hebrews 2:14 says nothing about Satan being bound, if it does please show it.
    If you cant beat them join them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    Then why do you insist on posting scripture of your own attempting to show otherwise?
    Try and keep up Bowman. My original difference with you was about the identity of "ho theos" in 2 Cor 4:4, YOU brought up the subject that Satan had no power over followers of Christ, I made no mention to this secondary subject prior to you raising it. I then comment, basically saying "I agree with you here" and now you're asking me why I insist on posting scripture of your own attempting to show otherwise? I'm not! Again, you raised that subject, not me!

    Quote Originally Posted by NWL
    Where does scripture state Jesus was bound?
    Who, but you, ever made that claim?
    The question was meant to read "Where does scripture state Satan was bound?", excuse the error. I've yet to receive an actual answer to the question btw.


    What do you personally mean when you say Satan was bound.
    Rendered impotent, per scripture
    That's not what Rev 12:9-12 states, a post-resurrection verse. What do you do with the said scripture.

    As a JW cult follower, when have you ever seriously bothered to study scripture in the first place?
    Childish question, which I'll be Christian enough to ignore.
    Last edited by NWL; December 28th, 2018 at 07:26 AM.

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