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Thread: John 20:28 and the Trinity

  1. #361
    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    You are supposed to believe what Jesus says yet you keep refuse them.

    Your Lord is not Jesus.
    Unsubstantiated accusation.

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    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartman View Post
    Nope. I am "dartman"... with every cell of my being. It is insanity to think I am Greater than myself.

    My God is greater than I.

    And my Lord, Jesus the man from Nazareth that God anointed, is greater than I. He gave his life for me, and there's no way I deserve that.
    So in that context and understanding I also say that Jesus IS God with every fiber of his being. But what do you say to someone who can prove that "dartman" came into being at a specific date as recorded by the servers at Theology Online?

    That wasn't rhetorical. What do you say to my proof that dartman didn't exist not that long ago?

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    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SabathMoon View Post
    Yes, it does in the next verse.
    John 20:28-29 KJV
    (28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
    (29) Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    Where does it say that Jesus interrupted Thomas and prevented him from speaking? The text says that Thomas answered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    So in that context and understanding I also say that Jesus IS God with every fiber of his being.
    I know you do. Jesus doesn't, in fact ZERO Scriptures do. By contrast, Jesus says VERY specifically, his Father (his God) is "the ONLY true God". This agrees with HUNDREDS of Scriptures, and they are unanimous .... Jehovah/YHVH God alone is "the ONLY true God", our Creator... and Christ's creator.

    [/quote] But what do you say to someone who can prove that "dartman" came into being at a specific date as recorded by the servers at Theology Online?[/QUOTE]I would say your definition of "came into being" is inaccurate. They would be confusing merely one account starting on that "specific date" is the same as "came into being".... which is a transparent, and pathetically weak attempt to circumvent the obvious.

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    Greetings again Apple7,
    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    You keep bringing up the topic, thus, the onus is upon you to tell us what the Christadelphian slant to the passages are, in the view of your cult. Waiting...
    Like you, I am not sure that we need to spend much more time and effort on this, as you stated we covered this a year ago. I was simply pointing out that you translate and expound and insist that m귒ĕlōhm should be translated as God in Psalm 8:5. So I ask again Could you explain why the writer to the Hebrews translates this as angels and actually bases his argument upon this translation? The end result is that we have two voices, the writer to the Hebrews who translates this as angels and Apple7 who translates this as God. You now also try to divert attention by accusing me of belonging to a cult. I am not sure of your definition of this as well, but it seems that it is you that has gone off on a tangent in this matter. Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. Does this agree with your theology?

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Greetings john ,w
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    And, of course, you have "the Spirit-Inspired interpretation," right rummy? You realize that you just asserted nothing, as that does NADA for your argument, or anyone elses? Probably not. If not, just how do you/we know, that the Spirit tapped you on the shoulder, and provided you/us a "signature guarantee" that you have "the Spirit-Inspired interpretation." Well? Log in.....lose your mind. Fascinating,
    I appreciate your input, but slightly question your style of expression. I do not mind some of your flair altogether as it breaks the ice of being too serious, but I suggest that you should be more careful and discerning before you shoot from the hip. I do not have the Spirit inspired interpretation. Hebrews 2:5-10 is the Spirit inspired interpretation and commentary of m귒ĕlōhm in Psalm 8:5. Jesus was made a little lower than the angels

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    TOL Legend john w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    I do not have the Spirit inspired interpretation.
    Then you lied:


    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Apple7,I was simply reminding you that you still ignore the Spirit-Inspired interpretation of Psalm 8:5 in Hebrews 2:5-10, ...
    Trevor
    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Hebrews 2:5-10 is the Spirit inspired interpretation and commentary of m귒ĕlōhm in Psalm 8:5. Jesus was made a little lower than the angels

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    No, it is not, as you are clueless as to the difference between objective revelation, given by objective words, in print, i.e., scripture, "It is written," and interpretation/understanding/illumination.



    Hebrews 2:5-10 KJV, Psalm 8:5 KJV, is objective revelation, not "the Spirit inspired interpretation," interpretation/illumination/understanding. If it were, we need no study, and there would be no disagreement.


    You can't be this ignorant. But, then again, you reject that the Lord Jesus Christ is God in the flesh, so I retract my doubt that you are ignorant.
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    John 20:28-29 KJV
    (28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
    (29) Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    Where does it say that Jesus interrupted Thomas and prevented him from speaking? The text says that Thomas answered.
    Verse 28, Thomas has not made a complete sentence, and Jesus interrupts in verse 29, praising him for relieving the others of his skepticism. There seems to be some humor in Jesus' statement to Thomas.

  9. #369
    Over 3000 post club Apple7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Apple7, Like you, I am not sure that we need to spend much more time and effort on this, as you stated we covered this a year ago. I was simply pointing out that you translate and expound and insist that m’ĕlōhm should be translated as God in Psalm 8:5.

    I have shown the exegetical reasoning for my position.

    You have been unable to exegetically rebut my reasoning for the past year.

    Thus, my position stands.





    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    So I ask again “Could you explain why the writer to the Hebrews translates this as “angels” and actually bases his argument upon this translation?” The end result is that we have two voices, the writer to the Hebrews who translates this as “angels” and Apple7 who translates this as “God”.
    The writer of Hebrews consulted the LXX, obviously.

    I consulted the original Hebrew.

    Either way, Jesus' deity remains intact....of which, could be the ONLY reason for you to be so fascinated with this tiny portion of Hebrews to the complete exclusion of the rest of the book....is your cults' very basis for existence is to deny Jesus' deity and The Trinity.





    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    You now also try to divert attention by accusing me of belonging to a cult. I am not sure of your definition of this as well, but it seems that it is you that has gone off on a tangent in this matter. Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. Does this agree with your theology?

    Kind regards
    Trevor

    Show us the word(s) 'was made' in either Hebrew or Greek.

    Good luck on word-smything this to mean 'created'.

    Give it a go...or not....probably not.....just continue to talk AROUND it for yet another year...

  10. #370
    Over 2000 post club way 2 go's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    How, EXACTLY, did Satan 'hinder' them?
    text does not say how satan hindered Paul , it says who hindered Paul which was satan .

    1Th 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

    how was David incited to number Israel by satan , text does not say . ( just who not how)

    1Ch 21:1 Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel.

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    Greetings again john w and Apple7,
    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    Hebrews 2:5-10 KJV, Psalm 8:5 KJV, is objective revelation, not "the Spirit inspired interpretation," interpretation/illumination/understanding. If it were, we need no study, and there would be no disagreement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    I have shown the exegetical reasoning for my position.
    You have been unable to exegetically rebut my reasoning for the past year.
    Thus, my position stands.
    The writer of Hebrews consulted the LXX, obviously.
    I consulted the original Hebrew.
    You (Apple7) translate m’ĕlōhm in Psalm 8:5 as God, while the writer to the Hebrews translates this as angels and bases his exposition on this.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    You peeps need to learn about this thing called context.
    I don't know with whom you are lumping me in when you say to me, in your juvenile way, "you peeps".

    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    1 John 2 describes Jesus as 'The Light'.....and, without 'The Light' there is darkness.

    Thus...without Jesus, people are in darkness..and are blinded.

    Simple enough, a grade-schooler could grasp...
    Parroting meaningless slogans like "Context is always king" is always a ploy to try to draw attention away from the fact that you can't defend the nonsense you've handed out.

    The specific context I'm talking about is 1 John 2:11. Do you not have that verse in your Bible?

    1 John 2:11 says that DARKNESS blinded so-and-so's eyes, not that JESUS blinded so-and-so's eyes. Can you not distinguish the name 'Jesus' from the word 'darkness'? A grade-schooler could; why can't you?

    You say that Satan has been bound, and that he doesn't blind anybody's mind now, and that the god of this world spoken of in 2 Corinthians 4:4 is not Satan, but is Jesus. So, are you saying that Satan, at some point, long ago, ceased from blinding peoples' minds, and that, since then, Jesus has taken over the task, from Satan, of blinding peoples' minds? Was Satan not doing a good enough job at blinding peoples' minds?

    When it's all said and done, the fact remains that the word "blinded", in 1 John 2:11, is completely useless to your attempt to prove that "the god of this world" spoken of in 2 Corinthians 4:4 is Jesus Christ, rather than Satan.

    Do you not believe Satan is real?
    Do you not believe Satan has blinded anybody's mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    It is hard to escape The Trinity.
    Oh. Are you trying to escape The Trinity? That would be a stupid thing for you to do. But, are you in the habit of accusing people of being non-Trinitarian, or anti-Trinitarian, when they disagree with you in your assertion that a certain Scripture passage (which virtually nobody considers to be a Trinity proof-text) is a "potent" proof-text of Trinitarianism?

    You said, yourself, that the belief that Paul's phrase, "the god of this world", denotes Satan, is a "popular, modern belief":

    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    Contrary to popular modern belief, The God of this age, (ho Theos tou aiōnos toutou), actually pertains to Jesus Christ and NOT Satan, and provides yet another potent scriptural proof for Jesus deity.

    So, when, exactly, did the period begin that you are referring to, here, as "modern"? Who was the originator of that "popular, modern belief", and when did they first disseminate it amongst the populace?

    Oh, and, if your spin on 2 Corinthians 4:4 is the truth, that means all who have adopted the "popular, modern belief" (which is contrary to your view) are in darkness, blinded to the truth that you are blessed to believe. So, who, exactly, would you say is blinding people's minds against believing your "truth" that Paul's "the god of this world" is NOT Satan, and is really Jesus?

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    text does not say how satan hindered Paul , it says who hindered Paul which was satan .

    1Th 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.
    Context, that you OMIT, informs the reader that Satan hindered Paul THROUGH the Jews.

    Therefore, Satan was NOT present.



    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    how was David incited to number Israel by satan , text does not say . ( just who not how)

    1Ch 21:1 Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel.
    Context states that it was Satan, himself, who stood against Israel....just as we would expect in pre-Cross scripture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again john w and Apple7,
    You (Apple7) translate m귒ĕlōhm in Psalm 8:5 as God,
    We already know this.

    Others do likewise...





    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    while the writer to the Hebrews translates this as angels and bases his exposition on this.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    The writer of Hebrews referenced the LXX.

    Now what.....this all you got?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post

    The specific context I'm talking about is 1 John 2:11. Do you not have that verse in your Bible?

    1 John 2:11 says that DARKNESS blinded so-and-so's eyes, not that JESUS blinded so-and-so's eyes. Can you not distinguish the name 'Jesus' from the word 'darkness'? A grade-schooler could; why can't you?
    One verse does NOT constitute context.



    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    You say that Satan has been bound, and that he doesn't blind anybody's mind now,
    Where was that stated?





    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    and that the god of this world spoken of in 2 Corinthians 4:4 is not Satan, but is Jesus.
    Scripture makes this declaration, not me.




    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    So, are you saying that Satan, at some point, long ago, ceased from blinding peoples' minds, and that, since then, Jesus has taken over the task, from Satan, of blinding peoples' minds? Was Satan not doing a good enough job at blinding peoples' minds?
    Show us relevant scripture OUTSIDE of 2 Cor 4...



    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    When it's all said and done, the fact remains that the word "blinded", in 1 John 2:11, is completely useless to your attempt to prove that "the god of this world" spoken of in 2 Corinthians 4:4 is Jesus Christ, rather than Satan.
    It proves my point quite well.

    Just like John 12, which uses another inflection of 'blinded', again attributed to Jesus Christ....of which, you are completely silent on...





    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    Oh. Are you trying to escape The Trinity? That would be a stupid thing for you to do. But, are you in the habit of accusing people of being non-Trinitarian, or anti-Trinitarian, when they disagree with you in your assertion that a certain Scripture passage (which virtually nobody considers to be a Trinity proof-text) is a "potent" proof-text of Trinitarianism?
    No scripture thwarts The Trinity.




    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    You said, yourself, that the belief that Paul's phrase, "the god of this world", denotes Satan, is a "popular, modern belief":
    You fell for it.

    Go ahead and give kudos to Satan...if that makes you feel better...

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