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Thread: John 20:28 and the Trinity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pierac View Post
    My Lord and my God.
    There you go, an Apostle refers to Jesus as God.
    You are wrong. He was talking about both His Father and Jesus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    You are wrong. He was talking about both His Father and Jesus.
    You are wrong. He was talking about Jesus on both counts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    You are wrong. He was talking about both His Father and Jesus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    You are wrong. He was talking about Jesus on both counts.
    This is one debate that I see.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pierac View Post
    My Lord and my God.
    There you go, an Apostle refers to Jesus as God.

    Spoiler
    When you look at some verses in the Old and New Testament you have to remember to look at them with a Hebrew or Greek mind of that period, and not a 20th century mind. Some language can mean something to us that it did not mean back then. For example, if an Englishman says, "I am mad about my flat" he means that he is exited about his apartment. To an American, that same phrase means that he is angry about his flat tire. The word "God" for example, means to us in the 20th century "The Almighty God." To a Jew it did not necessarily mean "Almighty God." In Psalms 82: 1 & 6 God refers to earthly rulers as gods. This is the same passage that Jesus quotes to the Jews when they accuse him of saying that he is God. Paraphrasing Jesus, he says to them; "If it is okay to call men gods, why is it blasphemous for me to say that I am the Son of God"(John 10: 33 - 38). Notice how when Jesus is accused of being God, he quickly corrects them that he is not God,but the Son of God. In 2 Corinthians 4: 4 Satan is also called the "god of this age." Does that mean that he is God Almighty? Of course not!


    John even tells us just 3 verses later why he wrote about Thomas story… In John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. If Thomas was really calling Jesus GOD almighty then John just contradicted why he wrote his writings.

    It would behoove you to start with the first chapter of John.

    John 1:1-3, John 1:14

    From there you can look at what John wrote in Revelation.

    Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    It never ceases to amaze me to what lengths some will go to deny their Saviour God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pierac View Post
    In 2 Corinthians 4: 4 Satan is also called the "god of this age." Does that mean that he is God Almighty? Of course not!
    Contrary to popular modern belief, ‘The God of this age’, (ho Theos tou aiōnos toutou), actually pertains to Jesus Christ and NOT Satan, and provides yet another potent scriptural proof for Jesus’ deity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    Contrary to popular modern belief, ‘The God of this age’, (ho Theos tou aiōnos toutou), actually pertains to Jesus Christ and NOT Satan, and provides yet another potent scriptural proof for Jesus’ deity.
    Interesting claim. I don't recall having encountered it before. But, why would Jesus Christ be inhibiting the light of the glorious gospel of Himself from shining unto them that are lost? And, cannot/does not Satan blind the minds of them which believe not? Why do you think Paul is talking about Jesus and not about Satan?

    3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

    4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    Interesting claim. I don't recall having encountered it before. But, why would Jesus Christ be inhibiting the light of the glorious gospel of Himself from shining unto them that are lost? And, cannot/does not Satan blind the minds of them which believe not? Why do you think Paul is talking about Jesus and not about Satan?

    Simple exegesis...


    Outside of 2 Cor 4.4, the only other inflections of ‘blinded’ (i.e. etyphlōsen & etyphlōken), used in the entire NT, are located in John 12, and 1 John 2, and have Jesus as the subject:

    • John 12 records that Isaiah wrote about Jesus, ‘The Arm of God’, ‘His Glory’ as blinding the thoughts of the unbelievers.

    • 1 John 2 records without Jesus’ light, the unbelievers are blinded.



    Contextually, the epithets contained within 2 Cor 4, including Theos, relate to Jesus…not to Satan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    Simple exegesis...


    Outside of 2 Cor 4.4, the only other inflections of ‘blinded’ (i.e. etyphlōsen & etyphlōken), used in the entire NT, are located in John 12, and 1 John 2, and have Jesus as the subject:

    • John 12 records that Isaiah wrote about Jesus, ‘The Arm of God’, ‘His Glory’ as blinding the thoughts of the unbelievers.

    • 1 John 2 records without Jesus’ light, the unbelievers are blinded.



    Contextually, the epithets contained within 2 Cor 4, including Theos, relate to Jesus…not to Satan.
    I don't see what you meant in saying that 1 John 2:11 has "Jesus as the subject". In 1 John 2:11, John didn't say that Jesus blinded someone:

    But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
    Rather, John said that darkness blinded someone. Jesus isn't darkness, and darkness isn't Jesus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    I don't see what you meant in saying that 1 John 2:11 has "Jesus as the subject". In 1 John 2:11, John didn't say that Jesus blinded someone:



    Rather, John said that darkness blinded someone. Jesus isn't darkness, and darkness isn't Jesus.
    1 John 2 declares the Light of Jesus overcoming the evil one.

    The one without Jesus' Light is in darkness.

    Again...it all about Jesus controlling the sight of the Righteous, as only God can do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    1 John 2 declares the Light of Jesus overcoming the evil one.

    The one without Jesus' Light is in darkness.

    Again...it all about Jesus controlling the sight of the Righteous, as only God can do.
    This still doesn't answer 7djengo7 point that 1 John 2:11 states "darkeness" has blinded a person who errors.

    Moreover your argument that you've held for a little while now is not consistent with scripture. In scripture both before and after the resurrection of Jesus Satan is the portrayed as the ruler of that age/world.

    (John 14:30) "..[Jesus said] I won't talk with you much longer, because the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me.."

    (1 John 5:19) "..We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.."

    (Ephesians 2:2) "..in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.."


    The very context of 2 Cor 4:4 contradicts your claim that Jesus is here being referred to as ho thoes since in the latter part of the very same verse Christ is identified, not as ho thoes, but as the image of the God.

    Furthermore, the verse states that 'the god has blinded the minds of unbelievers so that the illumination of the good news of Christ might not shine through'. This statement makes no sense if Jesus is the one who is not allowing the light shine through as seen in 2 Cor 4:4, since John 12:46 has Jesus announce "I have come as a light into the world, so that everyone putting faith in me may not remain in darkness". Jesus with his light is unblinding the people in darkness, this can also be seen in 2 Cor 4:6 where it states:

    "For God, who said, "Let there be light in the darkness," has made this light shine in our hearts so we could know the glory of God that is seen in the face of Jesus Christ"

    Thus Jesus cannot be "the god" who is blinding the mind of unbelievers yet at the same time be un-blinding the eyes of unbelievers.

    Again...it all about Jesus controlling the sight of the Righteous, as only God can do.
    Where in scripture does it ever say only God can control the sight of the righteous? Assumptions galore.
    If you cant beat them join them

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    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post
    This still doesn't answer 7djengo7 point that 1 John 2:11 states "darkeness" has blinded a person who errors.
    On the contrary, it is the darkness void left without Jesus' Light that blinds a person.

    Hence, Jesus is the one controlling the event.



    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post
    Moreover your argument that you've held for a little while now is not consistent with scripture. In scripture both before and after the resurrection of Jesus Satan is the portrayed as the ruler of that age/world.

    (John 14:30) "..[Jesus said] I won't talk with you much longer, because the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me.."
    This is Pre-Cross scripture.

    Satan was bound at The Cross.





    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post
    (1 John 5:19) "..We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.."

    1 John 5.18 – 19

    οιδαμεν οτι πας ο γεγεννημενος εκ του θεου ουχ αμαρτανει αλλ ο γεννηθεις εκ του θεου τηρει αυτον και ο πονηρος ουχ απτεται αυτου οιδαμεν οτι εκ του θεου εσμεν και ο κοσμος ολος εν τω πονηρω κειται

    Oidamen hoti pas ho gegennēmenos ek tou Theou ouch hamartanei all' ho gennētheis ek tou Theou tērei auton kai ho ponēros ouch haptetai autou oidamen hoti ek tou Theou esmen kai ho kosmos holos en tō ponērō keitai

    We know that everyone being born from God does not sin, but The One having been born from God guards him, and The Evil One does not touch him. We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of The Evil One.

    Context is always king.

    This passage, in 1 John 5, informs the reader that Satan (the Evil One) cannot do anything to the people of God.

    Juxtaposed to this very succinct proclamation of The Devil’s impotence, is the assertion that the entire world is subjected to his ‘power’ (i.e. demons, as proclaimed throughout scripture).

    Clearly, Satan is bound….but his demons are not.

    Simple Biblical truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post

    (Ephesians 2:2) "..in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.."

    Eph 2.1 - 3

    και υμας οντας νεκρους τοις παραπτωμασιν και ταις αμαρτιαις υμων εν αις ποτε περιεπατησατε κατα τον αιωνα του κοσμου τουτου κατα τον αρχοντα της εξουσιας του αερος του πνευματος του νυν ενεργουντος εν τοις υιοις της απειθειας εν οις και ημεις παντες ανεστραφημεν ποτε εν ταις επιθυμιαις της σαρκος ημων ποιουντες τα θεληματα της σαρκος και των διανοιων και ημεθα τεκνα φυσει οργης ως και οι λοιποι

    Kai hymas ontas nekrous tois paraptōmasin kai tais hamartiatis hymōn en hais pote periepatēsate kata ton aiōna tou kosmou toutou kata ton archonta tēs exousias tou aeros tou pneumatos tou nyn energountos en tois huiois tēs apeitheias en hois kai

    And you being dead in the trespasses and the sins of you, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit at present putting forth power inside the sons of disobedience, among whom we also all conducted ourselves in times past in the lusts of our flesh, doing the things willed of the flesh and of the understanding, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as the rest.



    Again...

    Satan is not present...rather his 'power' i.e. his demons are still active.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post

    The very context of 2 Cor 4:4 contradicts your claim that Jesus is here being referred to as ho thoes since in the latter part of the very same verse Christ is identified, not as ho thoes, but as the image of the God.
    Where is Satan mentioned?

    He's not.

    Contextually, the epithets contained within 2 Cor 4, including Theos, relate to Jesus…not to Satan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NWL View Post

    Furthermore, the verse states that 'the god has blinded the minds of unbelievers so that the illumination of the good news of Christ might not shine through'. This statement makes no sense if Jesus is the one who is not allowing the light shine through as seen in 2 Cor 4:4, since John 12:46 has Jesus announce "I have come as a light into the world, so that everyone putting faith in me may not remain in darkness". Jesus with his light is unblinding the people in darkness, this can also be seen in 2 Cor 4:6 where it states:

    "For God, who said, "Let there be light in the darkness," has made this light shine in our hearts so we could know the glory of God that is seen in the face of Jesus Christ"

    Thus Jesus cannot be "the god" who is blinding the mind of unbelievers yet at the same time be un-blinding the eyes of unbelievers.



    Where in scripture does it ever say only God can control the sight of the righteous? Assumptions galore.

    Outside of 2 Cor 4.4, the only other inflections of ‘blinded’ (i.e. etyphlōsen & etyphlōken), used in the entire NT, are located in John 12, and 1 John 2, and have Jesus as the subject:

    • John 12 records that Isaiah wrote about Jesus, ‘The Arm of God’, ‘His Glory’ as blinding the thoughts of the unbelievers.

    • 1 John 2 records without Jesus’ light, the unbelievers are blinded.




    It is most interesting that you completely IGNORE John's recording of what Isaiah had to say regarding Jesus, The Arm of God, God, Himself, when He purposefully blinds whom He will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    On the contrary, it is the darkness void left without Jesus' Light that blinds a person.

    Hence, Jesus is the one controlling the event.
    If this is the case then to say that Jesus is the ho theos in 2 Cor 4:4 goes contrary to what you just said. The verse states the ho thoes, namely Jesus in your eyes, blinded the minds of unbelievers, yet your claim is that "it is the darkness void left without Jesus' Light that blinds a person". Jesus not allowing his light to shine on an already blind person is very different to actively blinding individuals as 2 Cor 4:4 expresses.

    Only Satan is described as actively deceiving and misleading people from Christ, not Christ himself.

    This is Pre-Cross scripture.

    Satan was bound at The Cross.
    So? Does this mean mean that you accept what I said in regards 1 John 5 or Eph 2? I think not.

    Where does it state Satan was bound at the cross, again this is your false assumption.

    1 John 5.18 – 19

    οιδαμεν οτι πας ο γεγεννημενος εκ του θεου ουχ αμαρτανει αλλ ο γεννηθεις εκ του θεου τηρει αυτον και ο πονηρος ουχ απτεται αυτου οιδαμεν οτι εκ του θεου εσμεν και ο κοσμος ολος εν τω πονηρω κειται

    Oidamen hoti pas ho gegennēmenos ek tou Theou ouch hamartanei all' ho gennētheis ek tou Theou tērei auton kai ho ponēros ouch haptetai autou oidamen hoti ek tou Theou esmen kai ho kosmos holos en tō ponērō keitai

    We know that everyone being born from God does not sin, but The One having been born from God guards him, and The Evil One does not touch him. We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of The Evil One.

    Context is always king.

    This passage, in 1 John 5, informs the reader that Satan (the Evil One) cannot do anything to the people of God.

    Juxtaposed to this very succinct proclamation of The Devil’s impotence, is the assertion that the entire world is subjected to his ‘power’ (i.e. demons, as proclaimed throughout scripture).

    Clearly, Satan is bound….but his demons are not.
    The original point made wasn't about if Satan did or did not have power over believers, but rather, if he was was the one mentioned as the "ho theos" in 2 Cor 4:4 who was actively blinding unbelievers.

    It would go without saying that if the Devil had no power of Jesus when he came to earth, that he would have no power over Jesus followers either since Jesus protects them, I have no issue with this and never claimed otherwise.

    Where does scripture state Jesus was bound? What do you personally mean when you say Satan was bound.

    Again...

    Satan is not present...rather his 'power' i.e. his demons are still active.
    Where does it reflect that in the scripture? I don't see it saying anywhere that Satan was not present, that the power referred to the influence that Satan had or that the "spirit" (singular) mentioned referred to evil spirits.
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