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Thread: John 20:28 and the Trinity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Jesus didn't deny the charge at all, he threw fuel on the fire. Show me where Jesus ever says "I am not God" then. Because he identified himself as the LORD four times in Revelation, and the LORD identifies himself as the one who is pierced on the cross in the Old Testament.
    Show me where Jesus said "I am God"? "I am" is not "I am God."

    You make simple word so complicated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    "I am" is not "I am God."




    exodus 3:14

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Rosenritter, I suggest that the term “The Son of God” is not equivalent to “God” and this is part of Jesus’ summary in John 10:36 in answer to their false accusation, being an explanation of John 10:30 which they misunderstood. Another part of his answer is to quote Psalm 82:6 where the Judges are called “gods” or “Elohim”. I do not know if you have fully worked through what Jesus is saying, when he refers to this reference to the Judges, but a comparison of Exodus 21:6 KJV "judges" and some other modern translations which have "God" here, but this shows that the Judges were addressed as “Elohim”. I agree with Meshak, you seem to be aligning yourself with the Pharisees’ wrong accusation.
    1. Jesus was very specific that He exclusively judges the living and the dead,
    2. shortly thereafter he refers to the Psalm where God (Elohim) judges the dead,
    3. and that we are also told in Ezekiel that the "God" that will judges is the LORD God, Jehovah (see below)

    Ezekiel 33:11, 20 KJV
    (11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
    (20) Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

    Doesn't that seem at least a little bit significant? There's no question that the LORD judges, Jesus says he specifically judges (the Son of God) and not the Father, and then he cites the Psalm where God (who inherits all nations) judges the minor judges who die like men. That seems like a very strong link.

    At the very least, recognize that Jesus citing "I have said, ye are gods" is hardly a refutation that he is indeed the LORD who judges every one after their ways. It's one of many strong links showing that Jesus is God, and can hardly be construed as evidence against.

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    Greetings again Rosenritter,
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    1. Jesus was very specific that He exclusively judges the living and the dead,
    2. shortly thereafter he refers to the Psalm where God (Elohim) judges the dead,
    3. and that we are also told in Ezekiel that the "God" that will judges is the LORD God, Jehovah (see below)

    Ezekiel 33:11, 20 KJV
    (11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
    (20) Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

    Doesn't that seem at least a little bit significant? There's no question that the LORD judges, Jesus says he specifically judges (the Son of God) and not the Father, and then he cites the Psalm where God (who inherits all nations) judges the minor judges who die like men. That seems like a very strong link.

    At the very least, recognize that Jesus citing "I have said, ye are gods" is hardly a refutation that he is indeed the LORD who judges every one after their ways. It's one of many strong links showing that Jesus is God, and can hardly be construed as evidence against.
    God the Father has appointed His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ to fulfil most of the roles that can be attributed to God alone, such as Judge, Saviour, Shepherd and many others. This simply, yet remarkably demonstrates Jesus’ unique position as the Son of God.

    I see no evidence that you have fully understood the reference to the Judges being called “Elohim”. My experience with this, is that I attended a series on Daniel at a local SDA Church. Having worked through a few chapters, on a night that some were away, they decided to fill in with a night on the Trinity. Most agreed with the leaflet that John 10:30 taught the Trinity, but I simply stated that I believed that Jesus is the Son of God. It took some years before I gradually understood John 10:30-36, and that this teaches that Jesus is the Son of God.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Rosenritter, God the Father has appointed His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ to fulfil most of the roles that can be attributed to God alone, such as Judge, Saviour, Shepherd and many others. This simply, yet remarkably demonstrates Jesus’ unique position as the Son of God.

    I see no evidence that you have fully understood the reference to the Judges being called “Elohim”. My experience with this, is that I attended a series on Daniel at a local SDA Church. Having worked through a few chapters, on a night that some were away, they decided to fill in with a night on the Trinity. Most agreed with the leaflet that John 10:30 taught the Trinity, but I simply stated that I believed that Jesus is the Son of God. It took some years before I gradually understood John 10:30-36, and that this teaches that Jesus is the Son of God.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    This branch has nothing to do anymore with whether mortal judges are "elohim" in that passage. Other Old Testament passages establish that the LORD judges everyone (including the judges) which provides evidence that the Psalm is properly translated in English as "God judges among the gods." Jesus established that he judges the judges and combined with other scripture (Ezekiel 33, as one example) that is sufficient to show what Jesus meant, that "the judge of the quick and the dead" is only and can only be God himself.

    Besides this (think please) you cannot logically / morally / ethically "farm out' the Judgment of God to a contractor or third party.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    This branch has nothing to do anymore with whether mortal judges are "elohim" in that passage. Other Old Testament passages establish that the LORD judges everyone (including the judges) which provides evidence that the Psalm is properly translated in English as "God judges among the gods." Jesus established that he judges the judges and combined with other scripture (Ezekiel 33, as one example) that is sufficient to show what Jesus meant, that "the judge of the quick and the dead" is only and can only be God himself.

    Besides this (think please) you cannot logically / morally / ethically "farm out' the Judgment of God to a contractor or third party.
    Your ability to dismiss Jesus' word is just amazing.

    Jesus says His Father gave Him authority to judge and forgive.

    He also says He cannot do anything on His own.

    You need to read the Scripture to harmonize with Jesus' word, not the other way around to suit your own man-made doctrine.


    Your Lord is your own doctrine, not Jesus.

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    Greetings again Rosenritter,
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    This branch has nothing to do anymore with whether mortal judges are "elohim" in that passage. Other Old Testament passages establish that the LORD judges everyone (including the judges) which provides evidence that the Psalm is properly translated in English as "God judges among the gods." Jesus established that he judges the judges and combined with other scripture (Ezekiel 33, as one example) that is sufficient to show what Jesus meant, that "the judge of the quick and the dead" is only and can only be God himself.

    Besides this (think please) you cannot logically / morally / ethically "farm out' the Judgment of God to a contractor or third party.
    I appreciate your response, but I suggest that what you have stated does not explain Jesus’ reference to Psalm 82:6.

    I would like to firstly explain my understanding of why the judges were called God or gods, and then briefly state the significance of this in John 10:30-36. It is interesting to note that the translators had difficulty with the relevant verses where the Judges acted in the role of God (Hebrew Elohim):
    Exodus 21:6 (KJV): 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
    Exodus 21:6 (ASV): then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.

    Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour’s goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
    Exodus 22:8-9 (ASV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor’s goods. 9 For every matter of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, whereof one saith, This is it, the cause of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double unto his neighbor.



    The role and responsibility of the judges is indicated in the following:
    Deuteronomy 1:17 (KJV): Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.
    2 Chronicles 19:6 (KJV): And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.


    Contrary to your suggestion that God did not farm out judgement, the above clearly states that God appointed these judges. So the judges were called God or gods because they were united in administering the work or judgements of God. The key to this is that they represented God. Jesus states in John 10:34-35 that they were called "gods" because the Word of God came unto them. Jesus was claiming a similar though superior role as The Son of God, by calling and claiming God as His Father. He was united with His Father in character and works. He represented God in all that he did.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    He was united with His Father in character and works. He represented God in all that he did.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    Exactly. This kind of simple fact is dismissed by trin believers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Rosenritter, I appreciate your response, but I suggest that what you have stated does not explain Jesus’ reference to Psalm 82:6.
    It does explain Jesus's reference to Psalm 82. You may prefer a different explanation (that I disagree with) but you haven't shown that the explanation I gave is contradictory to my existing set of known facts.

    I would like to firstly explain my understanding of why the judges were called God or gods, and then briefly state the significance of this in John 10:30-36. It is interesting to note that the translators had difficulty with the relevant verses where the Judges acted in the role of God (Hebrew Elohim):
    Exodus 21:6 (KJV): 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
    Exodus 21:6 (ASV): then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.

    Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour’s goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
    Exodus 22:8-9 (ASV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor’s goods. 9 For every matter of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, whereof one saith, This is it, the cause of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double unto his neighbor.


    Why would you say the translators had "difficulty?"

    The role and responsibility of the judges is indicated in the following:
    Deuteronomy 1:17 (KJV): Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.
    2 Chronicles 19:6 (KJV): And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.


    Contrary to your suggestion that God did not farm out judgement, the above clearly states that God appointed these judges. So the judges were called God or gods because they were united in administering the work or judgements of God. The key to this is that they represented God. Jesus states in John 10:34-35 that they were called "gods" because the Word of God came unto them. Jesus was claiming a similar though superior role as The Son of God, by calling and claiming God as His Father. He was united with His Father in character and works. He represented God in all that he did.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    There is a marked difference between God appointing men to make judgments among men and the judgment of God as to whether men walk with God, whether they shall have eternal life. God does not "farm out" forgiving sin against God and eternal life.

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    John 20-28
    said
    Thomas knew that God was in Christ. And Thomas was addressing both of them. And so that He wouldn't be rude by leaving one or the other un addressed. He addressed both of them. My Lord Jesus, and also my God the Father.

    John 20:28
    28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
    (NKJ)

    2 Cor 5:19
    19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    (NKJ)


    Matt 7:21-23
    21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'LORD, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
    22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'LORD, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
    23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
    (NKJ)

    Luke 6:46
    46 "But why do you call Me 'LORD, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say?
    (NKJ)

    Luke 13:25-27
    25 "When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'LORD, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,'
    26 "then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.'
    27 "But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'
    (NKJ)

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    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 6days
    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    You are reading all of them to harmonize with your own doctrine, not with Jesus' simple and clear statements.
    John 10:30I (Jesus)and My Father are one.
    ”Of course They are one in unity.
    So, Jesus words were not so clear and simple?? Why can't you accept what he said without adding "in unity" to the words of Jesus? Does your added words have anything to do with "your own doctrine"?
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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    Greetings again Rosenritter,
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    It does explain Jesus's reference to Psalm 82. You may prefer a different explanation (that I disagree with) but you haven't shown that the explanation I gave is contradictory to my existing set of known facts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    This branch has nothing to do anymore with whether mortal judges are "elohim" in that passage. Other Old Testament passages establish that the LORD judges everyone (including the judges) which provides evidence that the Psalm is properly translated in English as "God judges among the gods." Jesus established that he judges the judges and combined with other scripture (Ezekiel 33, as one example) that is sufficient to show what Jesus meant, that "the judge of the quick and the dead" is only and can only be God himself.

    Besides this (think please) you cannot logically / morally / ethically "farm out' the Judgment of God to a contractor or third party.
    To be honest, I had difficulty with understanding what you were stating in your earlier post and I am still having difficulty. My understanding of Psalm 82 is that the Psalmist is speaking against corrupt Judges, who were not fulfilling their appointed role of being impartial in their judgement. So "God judges among the gods" represents that God judges amongst the Judges. God the Father is ultimately the Judge, but Moses appointed 70 Judges to help administer the day to day judgements, when he was overburdened with all the people that sought his decisions.
    Why would you say the translators had "difficulty?"
    Because the Hebrew here has “Elohim”, and this word is usually translated “God” in most contexts. The KJV translators saw this difficulty and translated this as “judges”, while many Modern Translations override this and translate this as “God”. A proper understanding here is that it is speaking of the Judges representing God, but this is difficult to convey without having an extensive footnote or margin explanation.
    There is a marked difference between God appointing men to make judgments among men and the judgment of God as to whether men walk with God, whether they shall have eternal life. God does not "farm out" forgiving sin against God and eternal life.
    What you say about the larger issues of sin against God and eternal life is true, but Jesus draws upon Psalm 82 and the reference to the Unjust Judges, and this then takes us back to the Judges appointed by Moses. Instead of stopping short at their accusation of blasphemy, we should carefully consider Jesus’ answer to their accusation.

    Another layer in Jesus quoting Psalm 82 is that he is suggesting that those who were trying to arrest him, to trap him and now falsely accuse him, are actually also fulfilling Psalm 82 as the corrupt Judges who would be replaced by the true Judge, the true Son of God, and God would judge them and reject them. This occurred in part in AD70.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    So, Jesus words were not so clear and simple?? Why can't you accept what he said without adding "in unity" to the words of Jesus? Does your added words have anything to do with "your own doctrine"?
    I follow the context. Trins don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    ... Jesus' clear statements ...


    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    I follow the context.
    wait, what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    Show me where Jesus said "I am God"? "I am" is not "I am God."

    You make simple word so complicated.
    Why then did they want to stone Him?
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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