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Thread: Can a Jew be saved without believing the Trinity?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    I believe that Jesus is risen from the dead.
    Hebrews 10:4 KJV
    Hebrews 10:14 KJV
    Hebrews 10:17 KJV
    Hebrews 10:39 KJV
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Angel or spirit? Both? Can you explain?
    Explain what.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Hebrews 10:4 KJV
    Hebrews 10:14 KJV
    Hebrews 10:17 KJV
    Hebrews 10:39 KJV
    Okay. Not sure.
    Explain what.
    You wrote,

    Ac23:8KJV

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Okay. Not sure.
    You wrote,

    Ac23:8KJV
    Sadducees can't be saved.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Sadducees can't be saved.
    Okay. I wanted to understand the verse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Your summary of what is required appears to be far short of the example of Philip’s preaching and what the Samaritans believed. Firstly you have not mentioned the Kingdom of God, let alone the things concerning the Kingdom of God. Also I disagree with your “God became a man” as Jesus is the Son of God, and I question whether your “died as an atoning sacrifice for sin” agrees with “the things concerning the name of Jesus Christ”. Thus the two major categories of the preaching of the Apostles and disciples are not covered by your summary.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    Let's be clear as crystal, right off the bat.

    You are not saved. If you die today, you will spend the rest of eternity paying your own sin debt by yourself.

    I don't know what odd ball flavor of Christianity you've been exposed to but if you deny the deity of Christ, you're not even a Christian, never mind a saved one.


    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

    John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    John 8:23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

    John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

    Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

    I invite you to read this short post that John W wrote in another thread....

    The "kinsman redeemer" concept explains why the Lord Jesus Christ must be God, to be qualified to redeem.

    According to the Old Testament laws regarding punishment and retribution for a crime(sin), when one was assaulted, robbed, murdered...., the responsibility to bring the criminal to justice and to protect the lives/property of the relatives fell to the nearest "kinsman". This responsibility/obligation was referred to as "redeeming", and the man who had this role was called a "redeemer"('goel' in Hebrew). Thus, the LORD God would use this object lesson to teach that redemption(to buy back/release for the purpose of setting free) is provided by a kinsman redeemer. The kinsman redeemer is someone who is qualified to execute the law of redemption-he is qualified to pay the price of debt. This kinsman redeemer of the Old Testament was a "type" of the Lord Jesus Christ as the Redeemer. There were 4 requirements for redemption, one being:

    The redeemer must not be compromised by his predicament, i.e., the redeemer must be free from that which caused the need for redemption. Thus, the redeemer could not redeem himself. No slave, for example, could redeem another slave. A person in bondage was in no position to redeem another. This explains the virgin conception. This REQUIRES that the redeemer be God. The Lord Jesus Christ "...knew no sin...."(2 Cor. 5:21 KJV-see also 1 John 3:5 KJV, 1 Peter 2:22 KJV, Hebrews 4:15 KJV , John 8:46 KJV, Exodus 12:5 KJV="YOUR LAMB SHALL BE WITHOUT BLEMISH(emphasis mine)". Only God fits this REQUIREMENT. - link to original post


    Now, as for aspects of Christian doctrine that I didn't mention, there are, as I said in my first post, many biblical truths that I made no mention of, a great many of which are indeed part of what is "the gospel" in that they are truths that apply to people who are saved. But there is a difference between all the things that are true of those who are saved and those things that one must understand and believe in order to get saved.
    The fact that we are identified in Christ as believers is a terrific example of one of these truths. It is a richly deep doctrine full of all sorts of things that have to do with a Christian having a successful daily walk that both the believer and the Lord Himself can be proud of, but it not a doctrine that anyone need hear one syllable about in order to cross over from being unsaved to being saved. It is a truth that can be understood later. There are bunches of such truths, lots and lots of them, enough that you could spend several life times studying them out. (Not the least of which is the doctrine of the Trinity, by the way.)

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    TrevorL,

    Do you believe that different things are to be understood differently? For example, if you read about the only begotten Son of God you see only begotten, but if it does not say only begotten it only says Son of God you don't think only begotten?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Let's be clear as crystal, right off the bat.

    You are not saved. If you die today, you will spend the rest of eternity paying your own sin debt by yourself.

    I don't know what odd ball flavor of Christianity you've been exposed to but if you deny the deity of Christ, you're not even a Christian, never mind a saved one.


    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

    John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    John 8:23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

    John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

    Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

    I invite you to read this short post that John W wrote in another thread....

    The "kinsman redeemer" concept explains why the Lord Jesus Christ must be God, to be qualified to redeem.

    According to the Old Testament laws regarding punishment and retribution for a crime(sin), when one was assaulted, robbed, murdered...., the responsibility to bring the criminal to justice and to protect the lives/property of the relatives fell to the nearest "kinsman". This responsibility/obligation was referred to as "redeeming", and the man who had this role was called a "redeemer"('goel' in Hebrew). Thus, the LORD God would use this object lesson to teach that redemption(to buy back/release for the purpose of setting free) is provided by a kinsman redeemer. The kinsman redeemer is someone who is qualified to execute the law of redemption-he is qualified to pay the price of debt. This kinsman redeemer of the Old Testament was a "type" of the Lord Jesus Christ as the Redeemer. There were 4 requirements for redemption, one being:

    The redeemer must not be compromised by his predicament, i.e., the redeemer must be free from that which caused the need for redemption. Thus, the redeemer could not redeem himself. No slave, for example, could redeem another slave. A person in bondage was in no position to redeem another. This explains the virgin conception. This REQUIRES that the redeemer be God. The Lord Jesus Christ "...knew no sin...."(2 Cor. 5:21 KJV-see also 1 John 3:5 KJV, 1 Peter 2:22 KJV, Hebrews 4:15 KJV , John 8:46 KJV, Exodus 12:5 KJV="YOUR LAMB SHALL BE WITHOUT BLEMISH(emphasis mine)". Only God fits this REQUIREMENT. - link to original post


    Now, as for aspects of Christian doctrine that I didn't mention, there are, as I said in my first post, many biblical truths that I made no mention of, a great many of which are indeed part of what is "the gospel" in that they are truths that apply to people who are saved. But there is a difference between all the things that are true of those who are saved and those things that one must understand and believe in order to get saved.
    The fact that we are identified in Christ as believers is a terrific example of one of these truths. It is a richly deep doctrine full of all sorts of things that have to do with a Christian having a successful daily walk that both the believer and the Lord Himself can be proud of, but it not a doctrine that anyone need hear one syllable about in order to cross over from being unsaved to being saved. It is a truth that can be understood later. There are bunches of such truths, lots and lots of them, enough that you could spend several life times studying them out. (Not the least of which is the doctrine of the Trinity, by the way.)

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    Exodus 3:14 after John 8:58 might not be the best but even all of your scripture verses are good. Thank you for sharing them. He was definitely without sin. I do believe Jesus to be the (only begotten) Son of God. The scriptures testify to the fact that He is (the only begotten Son of God).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    I was a Christian without Trinitarian belief. I believe that a Jew can be saved without a belief in the Trinity. Does anyone want to challenge me on this? I am willing to discuss or have a conversation.

    Hi and from your paragraph above , you are not saved !!

    Rom 10:9 says , That if you should CONFESS with your mouth ( THE ) LORD Jesus Jesu , and should believe in your HEART that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved !!

    #2 , 1 Cor 12:3 makes it VEY plain that NO ONE is able to SAY LORD JESUS except by the HOLY SPIRIT !!

    #3 This means that you do NOT have the HOLY SPIRIT and are dead in your SINS !!

    #4 Of , course Matt 28:19 has the trinity and also 1 John 5:7 and 8 !!

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi and from your paragraph above , you are not saved !!

    Rom 10:9 says , That if you should CONFESS with your mouth ( THE ) LORD Jesus Jesu , and should believe in your HEART that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved !!

    #2 , 1 Cor 12:3 makes it VEY plain that NO ONE is able to SAY LORD JESUS except by the HOLY SPIRIT !!

    #3 This means that you do NOT have the HOLY SPIRIT and are dead in your SINS !!

    #4 Of , course Matt 28:19 has the trinity and also 1 John 5:7 and 8 !!

    dan p
    Jesus is Lord.

    I have no problem with these scriptures.

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    Greetings again Clete,
    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Let's be clear as crystal, right off the bat.
    You are not saved. If you die today, you will spend the rest of eternity paying your own sin debt by yourself.
    I don't know what odd ball flavor of Christianity you've been exposed to but if you deny the deity of Christ, you're not even a Christian, never mind a saved one.
    I appreciate your decision and detailed exposition why I am not saved, and your Trinity and Redemption exposition. I believe that Jesus is my Saviour and that his sacrifice has opened the way for the forgiveness of my sins. I stand before his tribunal, not yours. Btw those that believe in substitution rather than representation do not usually speak in terms of forgiveness of sins.
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
    John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
    John 8:23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
    John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
    Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
    I appreciate your so-called “Trinity” verses. I understand the Word in John 1:1 to be a similar personification of God’s Wisdom as found in Proverbs 8. I notice that you quote John 8:24, but you do not quote John 8:28 which also sets the context for John 8:58, where the identical phrase “I am he” occurs, and this is the same as “I AM” in John 8:58. Jesus is claiming to be the Christ, the Son of God. I accept the translation by Tyndale of Exodus 3:14, together with the RV and RSV margins of “I will be” and this shows that there is no direct connection between Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58. In this I agree with Jacob that you have chosen a poor example to support your Trinity belief.
    I invite you to read this short post that John W wrote in another thread....
    The "kinsman redeemer" concept explains why the Lord Jesus Christ must be God, to be qualified to redeem.
    I appreciate your detailed exposition of the concept of the Redeemer. I believe that God the Father is the redeemer through His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. Boaz is a type, when he redeemed Ruth.
    Now, as for aspects of Christian doctrine that I didn't mention, there are, as I said in my first post, many biblical truths that I made no mention of, a great many of which are indeed part of what is "the gospel" in that they are truths that apply to people who are saved. But there is a difference between all the things that are true of those who are saved and those things that one must understand and believe in order to get saved.
    The fact that we are identified in Christ as believers is a terrific example of one of these truths. It is a richly deep doctrine full of all sorts of things that have to do with a Christian having a successful daily walk that both the believer and the Lord Himself can be proud of, but it not a doctrine that anyone need hear one syllable about in order to cross over from being unsaved to being saved. It is a truth that can be understood later. There are bunches of such truths, lots and lots of them, enough that you could spend several life times studying them out. (Not the least of which is the doctrine of the Trinity, by the way.)
    Firstly I reject the Trinity, but also you do not follow the example of the preaching of the gospel in Acts 8:5-6, 12 and Acts 28:30-31. Your “gospel” is a digest of current church teaching.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Jesus is Lord.

    I have no problem with these scriptures.

    In Rom 10:9 you have Jesus as LORD , which is God and we have God that raised Him from the dead and in 1 Cor 12:3 we have the HOLY SPIRIT and then we have the TRINITY , and then you believe in the TRINITY ??

    danp

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    In Rom 10:9 you have Jesus as LORD , which is God and we have God that raised Him from the dead and in 1 Cor 12:3 we have the HOLY SPIRIT and then we have the TRINITY , and then you believe in the TRINITY ??

    danp
    No. Jesus is Lord, second to only God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi and from your paragraph above , you are not saved !!

    Rom 10:9 says , That if you should CONFESS with your mouth ( THE ) LORD Jesus Jesu , and should believe in your HEART that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved !!

    #2 , 1 Cor 12:3 makes it VEY plain that NO ONE is able to SAY LORD JESUS except by the HOLY SPIRIT !!

    #3 This means that you do NOT have the HOLY SPIRIT and are dead in your SINS !!

    #4 Of , course Matt 28:19 has the trinity and also 1 John 5:7 and 8 !!

    dan p
    You're off by a country mile, and then some.

    If the guy trusted that Christ died for his sins, he was saved then and there.

    While, as with many other doctrines, belief in a doctrine like the Trinity is something that a Believer is walked through and learns about, at some later point in his or her continuing instruction in righteousness.

    Meaning that if someone who trusted that Christ died for their sins later learns about the Trinity - either in favor of it, or against it, they are either still saved but now clear, more or less, on the doctrine of the Trinity, or still saved, but confused about the doctrine of the Trinity.

    This issue is very similar to other doctrinal issue problems often addressed by Paul - like the one in 1 Corinthians 15 - their having ended up confused about the validity of Christ's having risen from the dead AFTER they had believed that Christ died for their sins, and rose from the dead - did not all of a sudden invalidate their salvation, just because some fool came along to assert that what they had believed had been in vain (baseless, and thus, not true).

    This issue of doctrine learned later, is a common one throughout Paul's writings.

    And not once does he assert they have lost their salvation over it.

    Because Romans 5:6-8, in EACH our stead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    You're off by a country mile, and then some.

    If the guy trusted that Christ died for his sins, he was saved then and there.

    While, as with many other doctrines, belief in a doctrine like the Trinity is something that a Believer is walked through and learns about, at some later point in his or her continuing instruction in righteousness.

    Meaning that if someone who trusted that Christ died for their sins later learns about the Trinity - either in favor of it, or against it, they are either still saved but now clear, more or less, on the doctrine of the Trinity, or still saved, but confused about the doctrine of the Trinity.

    This issue is very similar to other doctrinal issue problems often addressed by Paul - like the one in 1 Corinthians 15 - their having ended up confused about the validity of Christ's having risen from the dead AFTER they had believed that Christ died for their sins, and rose from the dead - did not all of a sudden invalidate their salvation, just because some fool came along to assert that what they had believed had been in vain (baseless, and thus, not true).

    This issue of doctrine learned later, is a common one throughout Paul's writings.

    And not once does he assert they have lost their salvation over it.

    Because Romans 5:6-8, in EACH our stead.

    Hi and by a country mile and hat sounds like CODSWALLOP to me !!

    And I presented what he does not believe and it is all on him !!

    Like Paul said , YOUR BLOOD is all on you !!

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi and by a country mile and hat sounds like CODSWALLOP to me !!

    And I presented what he does not believe and it is all on him !!

    Like Paul said , YOUR BLOOD is all on you !!

    dan p
    The only problem that I see is that you were wrong. I believe that it is because you didn't know. So, thank you.

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