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Thread: Can a Jew be saved without believing the Trinity?

  1. #76
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Clete Fair enough, but it has a range of meaning and I suggest that it is not speaking about a Being in John 1:1 but a personified concept similar to Wisdom in Proverbs 8, where Wisdom is personified as a Wise Woman who was with God during the Creation process.
    Proverbs 8:12, 22–31 (KJV): 12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength. 15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. 17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. 18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. 19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. 20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: 21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
    22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

    One thing that I was taught in my youth was that you have to be careful with that type of logic, A=B and A=C then B=C. One title for this is syllogism, and if you look this up you will find many types, faulty syllogisms, partial syllogisms etc. There is often a fourth factor that shows your type of deduction as being faulty. In my youth one of our expositors mentioned his assessment of much of the logic by Job’s three friends could be summarised by the following faulty syllogism:
    All suffering is the result of sin, Job is a great sufferer, Therefore Job is a great sinner.
    The logic (i.e. the syllogism) is not at fault here. In fact, logic never - ever - is. Logic, or more apply, sound reason is nothing more than conforming your mind to reality.

    You should find your old teacher and punch him in the face! He has has taught you to distrust the only means by which your mind has to learn, the only tool with which you are capable of discerning truth from error. He may well have doomed your soul to Hell in the process.

    The error is not the syllogism, it is in the fact that the conclusion does not follow from the premises. It makes what is called a category error. The opening premise is a general statement while the second is a specific case. The conclusion would only follow if the opening premise were stated as "All of one's own suffering comes from one's own sin and not the sin of others.". In that case, the conclusion would follow but it would still be false because now the opening premise is false. Further, even if you wanted to insist that no such contegory error was taking place, the opeing premise, as stated, is false anyway. Think it through - if you can.

    There, that was a brief introduction into Clear Thinking 101. In short, never doubt logic. You have to use logic in order to make any attempt to undermine it. Logic is therefore utterly irrefragable. Any attmept to squash it only squashes the squasher.

    This is a faulty syllogism,


    Saying it doesn't make it so!


    as Jesus is the Son of God.
    Indeed, He is!

    I agree with the verse that Jacob alluded to and that you also tentatively endorse:
    John 20:30–31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
    But I suggest that Trinitarians do not agree that this is the proper summary of the theme and purpose of John’s Gospel, and they actually have a perspective that disagrees with this summary.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    Why would anyone disagree with a syllable of that summary?

    Jesus was, quite literally, the Son of God. Before God became a Man, there was no "Jesus". Jesus was a human male born of a virgin and of God.
    There is no denying BY ANYONE that this is the truth.

    But as I just got through pointing out to Jacob, the very same author in the very same book that you just quoted a summary of also flatly states the the Creator became flesh and that His name was Jesus.

    There only reason to deny that would be if you had some sort of axe to grind. Some sort of preconceived notion, some pet doctrine, that is at war with John's undeniable claims of Jesus' divinity.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  3. #77
    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Oh come on! What do you think, that I'm stupid? You don't have to interpret it, all you have to do is read it!

    Do you not have an English bible?

    Have I not directly quoted the relevant passages to you repeatedly already?

    What sort of idiotic game are you playing here?


    There is no way anyone will ever convince me that you don't know full well that the New Testament was written in Greek

    Not that it matters one iota!


    If you cannot simply read the book of John in Enlgish and understand it, you're stupid.


    Only if you're a slobering idiot.


    Not so much that a simple one time surface reading of the text of John 1 should suffice to convey the plainly obvious fact Jesus is God incarnate.


    You can't even understand 4rd grade level English sentences. If you think I'm going to attempt to help you understand the Trinity, you're not only stupid, you're delusion.

    The phrase "Pearls before swine" might have some meaning to your disfuncting Jewish mind.


    The same scripture that tells you that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God is the very same scripture that tells you that Jesus is God incarnate! Both things are in the same book by the same author! John 3:16 is less than three pages away from John 1! Why do you accept the later and not the former?


    That doesn't work for more than one other man! It is precisely the fact that Jesus was divine that make His death of sufficient value to pay the sin debt of the entire world.

    The very gospel itself is undermined by the denial of Jesus' divinity.


    Well, isn't that obvoious? If an innocent person is punished for someone else, how could it possibly be just to also punish the guilty party?

    Common sense!


    What? This question makes no sense.

    Do you mean criminally?

    If so, then yes, of course it is. What Jesus did on the cross was not about absolving crimes but sins. Sure crimes are sinful but the sinful aspect of a crime is not dealt with by the judge here on Earth. The judge deals with the criminal aspects of the act which have to do with maintaining a just and civil society. It is God who deals with sin. A murderer who is put to death here on Earth, is not obsolved of the sin because he was executed. The sin can only be washed away by the blood of Christ. If that is not done, the murderer spent the after life seperated from God (i.e. the 2nd death).


    Complete jibberish!

    The wages of sin is death. (Rom. 6:23)

    There is no forgiveness of sins about from the blood of Christ - period.
    Shalom.

    I am sorry about the human element. I am human. I wanted to spell every thing out but I don't know that this was appreciated by you. Thank you for your response by the way. I value the time you put into it.

    Of course there is no forgiveness apart from Christ. I may start a thread on the Trinity if you are not wanting to go through it. The question of if I need to know the Trinity doctrine has already been answered.

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

  4. #78
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Clete Fair enough, but it has a range of meaning and I suggest that it is not speaking about a Being in John 1:1 but a personified concept similar to Wisdom in Proverbs 8, where Wisdom is personified as a Wise Woman who was with God during the Creation process.
    Not speaking about a being? We see this "being" has a NAME, and his "vesture is dipped in blood". He even has King of King and Lord of Lords emblazoned on his thigh.

    Rev. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
    Last edited by glorydaz; December 6th, 2018 at 05:01 PM.

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  6. #79
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Not speaking about a being? We see this "being" has a NAME, and his "vesture is dipped in blood". He even has King of King and Lord of Lords emblazoned on his thigh.

    Rev. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
    That is a brillinat post! "His names is called The Word of God" - Wow, what a great verse! Just excellent!

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Greetings glorydaz,
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Not speaking about a being? We see this "being" has a NAME, and his "vesture is dipped in blood". He even has King of King and Lord of Lords emblazoned on his thigh.
    Jesus is also the Way, the Truth and the Life, as well as the Word and he also has the name “the Word of God” as you have now quoted. There is a distinction between the Word in John 1:1, 14 and the being, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords who has the name “the Word of God” Revelation 19:13. Please note the distinction “the Word” and “the Word of God”. “The Word of God” does not say “the Word who is God”. All these terms find their greatest fulfilment in Jesus, but they do not prove what you seem to be asserting that John 1:1 is speaking about the Second person of the Trinity. John 1:1 does not say any such thing. You are following A=B and A=C then B=C or some similar logic which is faulty. Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Greetings again Clete,
    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    The logic (i.e. the syllogism) is not at fault here. In fact, logic never - ever - is. Logic, or more apply, sound reason is nothing more than conforming your mind to reality.

    You should find your old teacher and punch him in the face! He has has taught you to distrust the only means by which your mind has to learn, the only tool with which you are capable of discerning truth from error. He may well have doomed your soul to Hell in the process.
    Actually, I highly respect this mentor as he helped me gain a reasonable understanding of the Book of Job. Btw, you will have to wait until the resurrection to speak to my brother-in-law, but you could speak to my sister who was his wife. She helped to prepare the manuscript for his commentary on Job. You have not answered the concept of the depiction of Wisdom as a Wise Woman in Proverbs 8.
    Why would anyone disagree with a syllable of that summary?
    Jesus was, quite literally, the Son of God. Before God became a Man, there was no "Jesus". Jesus was a human male born of a virgin and of God.
    There is no denying BY ANYONE that this is the truth.
    A Trinitarian may say that Jesus is the Son of God, but they believe that Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity, that He is God the Son, not the Son of God.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Over 1000 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    ...a reasonable understanding of the Book of Job.
    Elihu.
    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    A Trinitarian may say that Jesus is the Son of God, but they believe that Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity, that He is God the Son, not the Son of God.
    We believe both.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Greetings Idolater,
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    We believe both.
    Perhaps you claim both, but the two concepts are, in my opinion at least, contradictory if you try to explain the details. If you want to give a simple summary of how Jesus is God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity and a man, the Son of God at the same time, then I will attempt to understand. Was he God or human when he was a babe and a child? Did he have two minds at the same time, the mind of a man and the mind of God? Did he have all knowledge, or was he limited in knowledge? And many other relative qualities of God and man could be mentioned.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings Idolater,Perhaps you claim both, but the two concepts are, in my opinion at least, contradictory if you try to explain the details. If you want to give a simple summary of how Jesus is God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity and a man, the Son of God at the same time, then I will attempt to understand. Was he God or human when he was a babe and a child? Did he have two minds at the same time, the mind of a man and the mind of God? Did he have all knowledge, or was he limited in knowledge? And many other relative qualities of God and man could be mentioned.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    Jesus is risen from the dead, and He ascended to heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father---all this is true, and Jesus trained/prepared the Apostles to institute the Church just the way He wanted it, including the Church instruction in matters of faith and morals---and the Church wasn't hindering the teaching of the Trinity, that Jesus is God, and Constantine, in the process of protecting the Church from being haphazardly killed/martyred, forced the Church's hand, and there was a Nicene council, and they published the Creed, and it was generated from a majority of bishops, who testified to the council what they heard, through oral, Sacred Tradition, about what the Apostles had instructed on the matter.

    The Apostles were Trinitarian. The Catholic Church is Trinitarian, and the Orthodox churches are Trinitarian.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings glorydaz, Jesus is also the Way, the Truth and the Life, as well as the Word and he also has the name “the Word of God” as you have now quoted. There is a distinction between the Word in John 1:1, 14 and the being, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords who has the name “the Word of God” Revelation 19:13. Please note the distinction “the Word” and “the Word of God”.

    “The Word of God” does not say “the Word who is God”.
    I think that's known as the quick shuffle step.


    It says the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Your claim is that a personified concept was with and was God in the beginning?


    All these terms find their greatest fulfilment in Jesus, but they do not prove what you seem to be asserting that John 1:1 is speaking about the Second person of the Trinity. John 1:1 does not say any such thing. You are following A=B and A=C then B=C or some similar logic which is faulty. Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    Then you claim this "personified concept" (him) made all things.


    Pretty hard for a "personified concept" to become flesh and dwell among us, too, isn't it?



    John 1:1-3
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    So, let me ask you, do you notice anything from this text that could possibly match up with John 1:1-3?

    Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

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    Greetings again Idolater,
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Jesus is risen from the dead, and He ascended to heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father---all this is true, and Jesus trained/prepared the Apostles to institute the Church just the way He wanted it, including the Church instruction in matters of faith and morals---and the Church wasn't hindering the teaching of the Trinity, that Jesus is God, and Constantine, in the process of protecting the Church from being haphazardly killed/martyred, forced the Church's hand, and there was a Nicene council, and they published the Creed, and it was generated from a majority of bishops, who testified to the council what they heard, through oral, Sacred Tradition, about what the Apostles had instructed on the matter.

    The Apostles were Trinitarian. The Catholic Church is Trinitarian, and the Orthodox churches are Trinitarian.
    I question, or rather strongly reject the idea that the Apostles were Trinitaraian. Yes I understand the development of the concept of the Trinity up until Constantine and beyond, I suggest that this is the part of the falling away, or Apostasy from the Apostolic faith. You did not address my questions about Jesus as a babe and in his youth, whether he was God or a human.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Greetings again Glorydaz,
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    I think that's known as the quick shuffle step.
    It says the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Your claim is that a personified concept was with and was God in the beginning?
    That's fine. Have you compared Proverbs 8 where Wisdom, as a Wise Woman was with God in Creation? Was Wisdom there as a Woman, and who is She? (One step at a time).

    Kind regards
    Trevor

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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Clete,Actually, I highly respect this mentor as he helped me gain a reasonable understanding of the Book of Job. Btw, you will have to wait until the resurrection to speak to my brother-in-law, but you could speak to my sister who was his wife. She helped to prepare the manuscript for his commentary on Job.
    All you have to do to understand the book of Job is to read it.

    Just read it - that's it.

    Not that there isn't plenty to be gleened from it through deeper study but "to gain a reasonable understaning", all one need do is to read the words on the page. It isn't written in code.

    You have not answered the concept of the depiction of Wisdom as a Wise Woman in Proverbs 8.
    I haven't answered what?

    A Trinitarian may say that Jesus is the Son of God, but they believe that Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity, that He is God the Son, not the Son of God.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    They believe both.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Perhaps you claim both,
    No, we believe both, because both are true.

    but the two concepts are, in my opinion at least, contradictory if you try to explain the details.
    Your opinion has been noted and subsequently rejected.

    If you want to give a simple summary of how Jesus is God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity and a man, the Son of God at the same time, then I will attempt to understand.
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.

    And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us.

    http://opentheism.org/white.html#god-the-sons-humanity

    Was he God or human when he was a babe and a child?
    Both.

    Did he have two minds at the same time,
    No.

    the mind of a man and the mind of God?
    One cannot have two minds.

    He DID, however, have two natures, He was fully God, and fully man.

    Did he have all knowledge,
    Omniscience is never explicitly attributed to God in the Bible.

    God can know everything that is knowable, and He does not have to know something that He does not want to know.

    or was he limited in knowledge?
    The Bible says He emptied Himself.

    And many other relative qualities of God and man could be mentioned.
    Such as?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Clete Fair enough, but it has a range of meaning and I suggest that it is not speaking about a Being in John 1:1 but a personified concept similar to Wisdom in Proverbs 8, where Wisdom is personified as a Wise Woman who was with God during the Creation process.
    Proverbs 8:12, 22–31 (KJV): 12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength. 15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. 17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. 18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. 19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. 20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: 21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
    22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

    One thing that I was taught in my youth was that you have to be careful with that type of logic, A=B and A=C then B=C. One title for this is syllogism, and if you look this up you will find many types, faulty syllogisms, partial syllogisms etc. There is often a fourth factor that shows your type of deduction as being faulty. In my youth one of our expositors mentioned his assessment of much of the logic by Job’s three friends could be summarised by the following faulty syllogism:
    All suffering is the result of sin, Job is a great sufferer, Therefore Job is a great sinner.
    This is a faulty syllogism, as Jesus is the Son of God. QED. I agree with the verse that Jacob alluded to and that you also tentatively endorse:
    John 20:30–31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
    But I suggest that Trinitarians do not agree that this is the proper summary of the theme and purpose of John’s Gospel, and they actually have a perspective that disagrees with this summary.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    Right back at ya.

    For your above is just plain nonsense.

    Your "personified concept" (wisdom as a woman) remains merely a concept, personified.

    In contrast to the following, which is referring to a Being.

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by HIM; and without HIM was not any thing made that was made.

    1:10 HE was in the world, and the world was made by HIM, and the world knew HIM not. 1:11 HE came unto HIS OWN, and HIS OWN received HIM not. 1:12 But as many as received HIM, to them gave HE power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on HIS name:

    1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld HIS glory, the glory AS OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN as of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 1:15 John bare witness of HIM, and cried, saying, This was HE of whom I spake, HE THAT COMETH after me is preferred before me: FOR HE WAS BEFORE ME.

    John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, which is in the bosom of the Father, HE hath declared him.

    And what did HE HIMSELF say about HIS Pre-incarnation?

    John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but HE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, EVEN THE SON IF MAN WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.

    What did Paul say about HIS transition from HIS Pre-incarnate FORM?

    Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, WHICH WAS ALSO IN CHRIST JESUS: 2:6 WHO, BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 2:7 But made HIMSELF of no reputation, AND TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, and was made in the likeness of men: 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, HE humbled HIMSELF, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted HIM, and given HIM a name which is above every name: 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Romans 5:6-8.

  23. The Following User Says Thank You to Danoh For Your Post:

    JudgeRightly (December 7th, 2018)

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