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Thread: Uniquely Christian and Jew but redeemed

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    Uniquely Christian and Jew but redeemed

    I just wanted to post a few things that weigh heavy on my heart.


    The Bread of the Presence, in the ancient Tabernacle and later in the Temple, 1 Kgs 7:48prefigured Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.


    In the Tabernacle God commanded Moses, Ex 25:8 "Let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst." In the sanctuary, in the ark of the covenant, God told Moses, Ex 25:22 "There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you..." God added, Ex 25:30 "You shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before me always." Jesus told us, Mt 28:20 "I am with you always."


    Abimelech the priest gave David this sacred bread. 1 Sam 21:6 "So the priest gave him the holy bread; for there was no bread there but the bread of the Presence." Jesus taught us that it was for all His disciples. Mt 12:1 "At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the sabbath; his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck ears of grain and to eat. ... [Jesus] said to them, 'Have you not read what David did, when he was hungry, and those who who were with him: how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence ... I tell you, something greater than the temple is here."


    Jesus showed us what was greater than the Temple. Lk 22:19 "He took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.'"




    Blood of the Lamb

    During Moses' time the priests sacrificed in the Tabernacle, a portable house of God in the wilderness. After Solomon built the First Temple, it became the place of sacrifice. The highest form of Hebrew worship was sacrifice, not prayer alone, just as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the highest form of Catholic worship. A priest is one who offers sacrifice. The Catholic priest is the counterpart not of the rabbi, but of the ancient Jewish priest who offered bloody sacrifices. The deacon, who reads the Gospel, is the rabbi's counterpart.


    The Old Testament sacrifice of a lamb, as opposed to any other animal, was important. The lamb did not resist, run away, or even cry out. Isaiah had foretold that the Lamb of God would do the same, Is 53:7 "He was oppressed, and he was afflicted yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth."


    The Jewish priests, before sacrificing the lamb, always asked, "Do you love this lamb?" If the family didn't love the lamb there would be no sacrifice. Jesus three times asked Peter, Jn 21:15 "Do you love Me?" Jesus allowed Peter to replace his triple denial with a triple affirmation that he did indeed love the Sacrificed Lamb.


    The family would place the lamb into the hands of the priest. When we give something to God we place it in His hands. Jesus' last words on the Cross were, Lk 23:46 "Father, into Thy hands I commit My spirit!"


    The priest and the head of the family then prayed together that God would accept the blood of the innocent lamb for the sins of that family for the entire year, just as the Lamb of God shed His Blood to redeem the sins of all His human family. The Catholic priest says, "Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father."


    The head of household then cut the lamb's throat with a sharp bronze knife while the priest caught the lamb's blood in a large bronze bowl. The priest then made seven complete trips around the altar, sprinkling the blood from the lamb on each of the four "horns." Then he took the lamb's body and placed it on the altar and started the ritual fire. With a big fire and a small lamb, the sacrifice was over quickly. The smoke rose from the altar. If the wind blew the smoke away and dispersed it, the priest told the family that its offer was rejected, and that it should repent and come back the following year. But if the smoke drifted upward, higher and higher until it disappeared from view, the priest told the family that God had accepted the sacrifice.


    Before the great tabernacle sacrifice, Jewish priests washed their hands in a bronze laver, or basin. Ps 26:6 "I wash my hands in innocence, and go about Thy altar, O Lord." Today the Catholic priest washes his hands saying inaudibly, Ps 51:2 "Lord, wash away my iniquity; cleanse me from my sin."


    The first priest attended at a great golden lampstand with seven oil lamps, called a menorah. It was dark in the tabernacle, and the menorah gave light.


    The second priest attended at the table of showbread. God had commanded Lv 24:5 that the Jewish priests, from Aaron forward, place twelve loaves of bread on a golden table "before the Lord." On each sabbath, the priests ate the bread which had been set in place on the preceding sabbath. This bread was to be eaten by the priests in a sacred place since it was Lv 24:9 "most holy" among the offerings to the Lord. God had said, Ex 23:18 "You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with leavened bread." During the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass the Catholic priest consecrates unleavened bread on the altar which becomes Christ's Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, and is consumed by the royal priesthood as the most holy offering in the New and Everlasting Covenant.


    The third priest served at the altar of incense. It looked like a small altar of sacrifice, with the same four horns. On it was a bronze laver. The priest would take a red-hot burning ember from the fire in which the lamb had been sacrificed, put it in the basin, and pour some incense on it, that his prayers might have a fragrant scent and go straight up to God. On solemn occasions Catholics spread incense about the altar as an act of reverence and purification. The smoke rising to heaven represents our own desire to have our prayers ascend heavenward in God's sight. Ps 141:2 "Let my prayer be counted as incense before Thee, and the lifting up of my hands as an evening sacrifice."


    God told Moses to place the Torah in the Ark of the Covenant, which in turn was placed within a tabernacle. God commanded, Ex 27:20 "You shall command the people of Israel that they bring to you pure beaten olive oil for the light, that a lamp may be set up to burn continually." All was placed within the tabernacle. By night, there was always a fire over the tabernacle, Ex 40:38 This began the idea of an eternal lamp beside the Jewish tabernacle. A thousand years later the Temple lamp miraculously continued to shine for eight days with only one day's supply of oil. Catholics continue this ancient Israelite tradition by placing a lighted candle beside the tabernacle in which the consecrated Hosts repose.


    In the center of the tabernacle was a room called the Holy of Holies. Once a year the cohen gadol, the high priest, alone would enter that room. In it was the Ark of the Covenant. Inside the ark were the two stone tablets with the Ten Commandments, a golden bowl of manna, and the five Torah scrolls. The Torah was a witness against the Israelites, Dt 31:26 but above it all was God's solid gold mercy seat, with a crown and two cherubim kneeling in prayer. Above the mercy seat, between the two cherubim, was a brilliant light, the shining glory of God. Ex 25:22 "From above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you." When the priest saw that light he took a huge cup of blood and sprinkled it until it was empty. Jewish tradition holds that not one drop of the blood of sacrifice ever touched the mercy seat or the cherubim; it all went into the bright light of God's glory. Jesus said, Jn 8:12 "I am the light of the world." Jesus' covenant family gave Him their imperfect sacrifices, and He gave them His perfect sacrifice.


    Jesus was pre-figured in the original Passover, when God commanded that Moses tell the Israelites, Ex 12:5-6 "Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male … the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs in the evening," as Jesus the Lamb of God was crucified in dim light. Mt 27:45 God commanded, Ex 12:8 "They shall eat the flesh that night," and told Moses, Ex 12:12 "I will smite all the first-born in the land of Egypt." But He promised, Ex 12:13 "The blood shall be a sign for you … when I see the blood, I will pass over you." Most of us know that the original Passover pre-figured the Body and Blood of the crucified Lamb. But there is more to the Passover story.


    Pharaoh commanded the death of every Hebrew male infant in Egypt, Ex 1:22 but death passed over Moses. Ex 2:5-10 Twelve centuries later, before Herod commanded the death of every Hebrew male infant in Bethlehem, Mt 2:13 death passed also over Jesus.


    The Jewish celebration of Passover has from the beginning been an experience of exile and return, as its participants re-live the experience of the desert and encounter with God. After Jesus was crucified the apostles also experienced a sense of exile in the desert followed by a transforming encounter with God. In this way Jesus is spiritually present in the entire Seder.


    The Seder table is different in many ways from the Jewish table setting on all other nights, as the ma nishtano acknowledges. God chose a young Jewish girl, a virgin who lived in Nazareth, to begin the rest of the story. Mary began her own Seder each year as Jews have since time immemorial, by lighting candles to give festive light to the table. Mary also gave us Jesus, the Jn 8:12 light of the world. Jesus has been at every Seder from the first one to this very day, spiritually present in the bread, wine, and lamb.



    Bread


    Jesus is spiritually present in the bread. It is unleavened, pure as Jesus was pure. It has dark stripes, as His back was striped by Pilate's scourging. It is pierced, as He was pierced on the Cross. Once it was the bread of life for Israel on the desert, as Jesus is the Jn 6:35 Bread of Life for all mankind. During the Seder, the head of the family takes three pieces of unleavened bread, reminding us of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. He breaks in half the second piece, suggesting the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity crucified. He then wraps one of these two pieces, called the afikomen (Hebrew: festival procession), a reminder of Jesus' constant call, "Follow Me," in white linen, reminding us of Jesus linen burial cloth, and "buries" or hides it, as Jesus was entombed. Later the youngest at table "resurrects" or finds the afikomen as Jesus rose from the dead. The head of the family then breaks the afikomen and passes it around for all to eat, as Jesus did when He told His apostles, Lk 22:19 "This is My Body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of Me." In that way, Jesus through the Seder calls us to follow Him into His death and resurrection, to become a new person in Christ.


    The unleavened bread also reminds us of the haste with which the Israelites left Egypt. The dough that they were sunbaking on the hot rocks of the Egyptian fields was removed before it could leaven, and so remained flat. It represents our need to remain ever alert and prepared for the day when God calls us to our destiny as Jesus told us, Mt 25:13 "Watch, therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour."



    Wine


    Jesus is spiritually present in the wine. When the afikomen is broken and passed around for all to eat, Jews drink the third of four cups of wine, called the cup of blessing because it represents the blood of the sacrificed paschal lamb. It is the cup that Jesus gave to His apostles, saying, Lk 22:20 "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in My Blood." He did not drink the fourth, the Kalah cup, explaining, Mt 26:29 "I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom." But later that evening at Gethsemane, Jesus prayed by moonlight, Mt 26:39 "Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me." After He was captured, Jesus asked Peter, Jn 18:11 "Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given Me?" Many Catholics believe that Jesus drank the last cup on the Cross, Jn 19:29 "They put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to His mouth. When Jesus had received the vinegar, He said, 'It is finished'; and He bowed His head and gave up His spirit."

    Gospels

    The New Testament accounts describe the Holy Eucharist as Jesus gave it to us. The term "bread from heaven" becomes fully clear only when we reach the Revelation to John. The Gospels Christ said at Capernaum. Jn 6:51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is My Flesh."


    Jewish life is rich in symbolism. The Seder table is filled with symbolic foods. Jesus said, Mt 26:23 "He who has dipped his hand in the dish with Me, will betray Me." He referred to the urhatz, the first washing; slaves eat quickly without stopping to wash their hands, but now Jews wash their hands in a bowl of warm water as a symbol of their freedom. The moror, bitter herbs which remind Jews that the Egyptians made their ancestors' lives bitter with hard labor, are dipped in charoset, a sweet mixture of chopped apples, nuts, and wine, to recall that even hard lives have their sweet moments. The matzo is the bread of haste that the Hebrews ate as they fled from Egypt. The karpas, green vegetables, represent the coming of Spring with its renewal of life, symbolizing the journey from slavery to the promised land; Jews dip them in salt water before eating to recall the tears shed along the way. If Jesus had said the Holy Eucharist was a symbol the Jews at Capernaum would instantly have accepted it.


    The Jews knew that He was speaking literally. Jn 6:52 "How can this man give us his Flesh to eat?" On other occasions when our Lord spoke of Himself as a Jn 10:9 "door" or a Jn 15:1"vine," nobody said, "How can this man be made of wood?" or "How can this man be a plant?" They recognized these as metaphors. But when Jesus insisted, Jn 6:53 "Unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of man and drink His Blood, you have no life in you; he who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood has eternal life." The Jews who heard this said, Jn 6:60 "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" They remembered God's command to Noah and all mankind, Gn 9:4 "Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood." God spoke more forcefully to His chosen people. Lv 17:10 "I will set my face against that person who eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people." It was only after Christ's redemptive sacrifice and the Holy Spirit's enlightenment that the Apostles saw the full meaning of our Father's next words. Lv 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life." In the Old Covenant our Father in heaven had commanded His children not to eat the blood of animals because we are not to participate in the life of animals. Animals, having no immortal souls, are lower than man in the order of created nature. However, in the New and Everlasting Covenant we consume the Blood of Christ to participate in Christ's eternal life.


    Jesus knew we would need a lot of help to become accustomed to the Holy Eucharist. He performed the Miracle of the Loaves and Fishes in the dim light of the original Passover sacrifice Ex 12:6 and of His Crucifixion. Mt 27:45 He performed the four great Eucharistic actions: He took the bread, blessed it, broke it, and gave it to His apostles to feed the people: Mt 14:15 "When it was evening, the disciples came to him and said, 'This is a lonely place, and the day is now over; send the crowds away to go into the villages and buy food for themselves.' Jesus said, 'They need not go away; you give them something to eat.' They said to him, 'We have only five loaves here and two fish.' And he said, 'Bring them here to me.' Then he ordered the crowds to sit down on the grass; and taking the five loaves and the two fish he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and broke and gave the loaves to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the crowds. And they all ate and were satisfied. And they took up twelve baskets full of the broken pieces left over."


    The three Gospel narratives of the Last Supper are absolutely consistent. Matthew: 26:26"This is My Body." 26:27 "This is My Blood…" Mark: 14:22 "This is My Body." 14:24 "This is My Blood…" Luke: 22:19 "This is My Body." 22:20 "This … is the New Covenant in My Blood." Jesus' next words instituted the Catholic priesthood: Lk 22:19 "Do this in remembrance of Me."


    Jesus assured the Apostles that the Holy Eucharist is a reflection of the heavenly banquet. Mt 26:29 "I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."


    After His resurrection, Jesus walked with two disciples to Emmaus. When they arrived, He celebrated the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for them; Lk 24:30 "While He was at table with them, He took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them."

    The apostles celebrated the Sacrament of Holy Eucharist. Acts 2:46 "Day by day, attending the Temple together and breaking bread in their homes…"


    The Apostles were visibly religious Jews. They wore the kippah (prayer hat), the tallit(prayer shawl with fringes) and the tephillin (phylacteries). Long after Jesus ascended to the Father, Peter protested that he had never in his life eaten anything unkosher. Acts 10:14 When these Jewish Apostles remembered Christ's command, Lk 22:19 "Do this in remembrance of Me," they added it to their synagogue worship. They began with synagogue prayer and Scripture readings, and then went to their homes to celebrate the Sacrament of Christ's Body and Blood. To this very day, the Introductory Rite and Liturgy of the Word come directly from Jewish synagogue worship. The Liturgy of the Eucharist comes directly from the Apostles' breaking bread in their homes.


    At Troas, Paul spoke all night, but he made sure to receive the Holy Eucharist. Acts 20:7 "On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight." Acts 20:11 "And when Paul had gone up and had broken bread and eaten, he conversed with them a long while, until daybreak, and so departed."


    On the Adriatic Sea, at dawn, Paul celebrated Mass for 276 people. Acts 27:35 "...he took bread, and giving thanks to God in the presence of all he broke it and began to eat. Then they all were encouraged and ate some food themselves."



    The Epistles


    Acts 20:11 "When Paul had gone up and had broken bread and eaten…" St. Paul explained clearly what "breaking bread" meant. 1 Cor 10:16 "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the Blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the Body of Christ?" St. Paul continued, 1 Cor 11:27 "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread ordrinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the Body andBlood of the Lord." St. Paul in these words confirmed Catholic teaching that the "bread … of the Lord" is truly Christ's Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, and that the "cup of the Lord" is the same substance: "Whoever … eats the bread or drinks the cup … will be guilty of profaning the Body and Blood of the Lord."


    St. Paul added, 1 Cor 11:29 "For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the Body eats and drinks judgment upon himself." If we receive the Holy Eucharist without acknowledging, at least in our hearts, that it is His true Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, we send ourselves to hell.



    The Revelation to John

    In the beginning God had said of marriage, Gen 2:24 "Therefore a man … cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh." Jesus assured us, Jn 6:56 "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." God prepared us first through natural marriage and then through the Holy Eucharist for the supernatural marriage to come at the end of time, Rev 20:7"For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride [the Church] has made herself ready; it was granted her to be clothed in … the righteous deeds of the saints." The Holy Eucharist, through which Christ abides in us and we in Him, will be our wedding feast. Rev 19:9 "Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb."




    Sabbath keeping:

    Acts 21:20-28 "And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. "What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. "Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses in order that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.
    Acts 21:20-28: forsake Moses & circumcise = keeping the Law
    With that said, it is important to keep the law of God fulfilled in Christ.

    In Matthew 19:16, Jesus was asked what must be done to inherit eternal life. His answer: "If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17). Jesus then listed several, including enough of the Ten Commandments to make clear which commandments He meant: " ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself’ " (Matthew 19:18-19).

    The Sabbath is one of those commandments.

    So with that said we know that the apostles did keep the Sabbath, just not in the same way that the legal Jews of the time did. By “Legal Jews” I mean those who placed higher importance of the law rather that the spirit of the law..

    My friends I haven’t come in here to argue. I came to sow the seeds of truth.
    So to summarize: the early Apostles were indeed Eucharistic sabbath keepers. More later.
    Peace be to all (Ps. Much of this information was gathered from other sources.






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    Way too long. And you're never going to get any traction with the Eucharist here. The Eucharist indeed was prefigured in many ways in the Old Testament, and it fulfills OT prophecies also, and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist also does render many New Testament scriptures simple and easy to understand, as compared with the idea that Christ is not truly present in the Eucharist. But nobody here wants to hear that. But good luck nonetheless. I'm rooting for you.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

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    Thanks. Sorry for the long winded dissertation. I guess what I was trying to get at that the early church apostles and church fathers were both Eucharistic and sabbath keepers unless they were gentiles. So where did the post Constantine church go so horribly wrong?


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    Quote Originally Posted by mhask68 View Post
    Thanks. Sorry for the long winded dissertation. I guess what I was trying to get at that the early church apostles and church fathers were both Eucharistic and sabbath keepers unless they were gentiles.
    I don't see any evidence or record where Gentile believers didn't celebrate the Eucharist. And the Church has long taught that Sunday, the first day of the week, the day that the Lord was raised from the dead, is the Christian 'Sabbath' day.
    Quote Originally Posted by mhask68 View Post
    So where did the post Constantine church go so horribly wrong?
    In AD 380, the Church was pronounced the state religion of the Roman empire. It took til the Reformation in Europe before people definitively started to recognize that the Church oughtn't become entangled in the civil administration of the state. 'Simony' was the buying of bishoprics, and it was only a thing---and a persistent thing at that---once the bishops acquired civil power, and now that bishops no longer have such civil power, we never hear about simony as a problem.

    I think that's where it went wrong. The Catholic Church today rightly teaches that there should be a wall of separation between Church and state, such that at minimum, everybody's right to religious liberty be recognized, affirmed, and protected.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

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    It’s ironic to me that I believe in the state of the Eucharist, but not as an ongoing and continuous sacrifice. It goes against scripture in so many places including the Pauline Gospels. His sacrifice was complete, whole and sufficient. I also take issue with the bear deification of Mary. She was a humble Jewish girl who acknowledged her need for a savior. She announced this in the Magnificat.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mhask68 View Post
    It’s ironic to me that I believe in the state of the Eucharist, but not as an ongoing and continuous sacrifice. It goes against scripture in so many places including the Pauline Gospels. His sacrifice was complete, whole and sufficient. I also take issue with the bear deification of Mary. She was a humble Jewish girl who acknowledged her need for a savior. She announced this in the Magnificat.
    I think that Romans 15:16 KJV is about the Eucharist, "that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost." The Eucharist is the offering.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    I think that Romans 15:16 KJV is about the Eucharist, "that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost." The Eucharist is the offering.
    It is just amazing how badly people will twist the scripture to support their false doctrines.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    It is just amazing how badly people will twist the scripture to support their false doctrines.
    Isn't, though?

    I'm looking at You.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Isn't, though?

    I'm looking at You.
    Says you...
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Says you...
    Well who else is going to confirm that 'I'm looking at You?'
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Yeah I can see that. As an offering sure. As a continuous ongoing sacrifice of Calvary. I don’t see any scriptural supports for that. Even St. Paul mentioned in Hebrews 10:1-18 that it was sufficient. But no one ever mentioned that it had to be done over and over on the altars of the world.


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    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
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    Why not just be Torah Observant and believe in Jesus?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Why not just be Torah Observant and believe in Jesus?
    Because the Torah does not include the testimony of Christ, only the prophesies concerning him.


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    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhask68 View Post
    Because the Torah does not include the testimony of Christ, only the prophesies concerning him.


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    Jesus spoke of the Torah, and now I am Torah Observant.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Why not just be Torah Observant and believe in Jesus?
    Sure, if A GENTILE wants to walk contrary to Scripture...

    Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

    21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

    Have at it "Jacob."

    Rom. 5:6-8.

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