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Thread: To Those Who Think Adulterers, Homosexuals, Fornicators etc...

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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemeorhateme View Post
    Murder, absolutely. I’ve always supported the death penalty for premeditated murder.

    As for the latter two, it depends in part on the circumstances. I don’t call for the death penalty for my father who molested me. I do think he deserves punishment, but not death.

    I also know someone who committed rape, who is currently incarcerated. Many would wash their hands, walk away, and consider him unredeemable. In a way I do understand this line of thinking, yet I’m trying to see him as more than the crime he committed. I want to see him reformed when he comes out of prison, and am trying to support him in this. It’s so easy to dehumanise those who commit horrific crimes, and so much harder to see them as a person rather than their crime. But in doing so, maybe, just maybe, we can help them reform?
    i appreciate your sentiments and agree that, in the individual case it can be argued. It could be argued for murder, that the murderer is redeemable.


    this touches on the reason for laws and punishments - one thing i was surprised to find in the discussion with glory the other day is that some people don't believe that punitive laws have a deterrent effect

    how do you feel about that?

    do punitive laws, promptly applied, have a deterrent effect on the rest of society?

    if we had harsh laws about murder that were swiftly and publicly applied, do you believe they would reduce the incidence of murder?

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  3. #32
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Are the parents willing to take them before the judges and say so?
    No loving ones would.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemeorhateme View Post
    Murder, absolutely. Iíve always supported the death penalty for premeditated murder.

    As for the latter two, it depends in part on the circumstances. I donít call for the death penalty for my father who molested me. I do think he deserves punishment, but not death
    While I disagree with your position on this topic, Pete, my heart does go out to you. I would call for the death of ANY adult who molests a child or rapes another individual. My reason is because I see it as the only way to protect future victims. However, that doesn't mean that more effort shouldn't be made in support and understanding towards the victims who are conflicted with such outcomes.
    Don't let the pettiness of life prevent you from enjoying God's plenty. ― Bernard Kelvin Clive

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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemeorhateme View Post
    Letís take a different capital crime then; disobedient sons. Many sons persistently disobey their parents, so should they be put to death?
    That would depend ... did they refuse to take out the trash or did they beat the next door neighbor's child to death with a baseball bat? It should be fairly obvious to all that there is a difference
    between being a brat as compared to a maniacal predator.
    Don't let the pettiness of life prevent you from enjoying God's plenty. ― Bernard Kelvin Clive

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    i appreciate your sentiments and agree that, in the individual case it can be argued. It could be argued for murder, that the murderer is redeemable.
    You make a fair point here. However, a murderer has taken the decision away from another person over whether or not they live or die. They have chosen to prematurely end the life of another, and so it seems fitting that the punishment for such is to lose ones own life.

    this touches on the reason for laws and punishments - one thing i was surprised to find in the discussion with glory the other day is that some people don't believe that punitive laws have a deterrent effect

    how do you feel about that?

    do punitive laws, promptly applied, have a deterrent effect on the rest of society?

    if we had harsh laws about murder that were swiftly and publicly applied, do you believe they would reduce the incidence of murder?
    Such laws can have a deterrent effect on some people, sure. But for someone who is say driven to murder and wants to be a serial killer, or someone who is driven to rape and wants to be a serial rapist, I don’t think any law one imposes, or any penalty as a result of that will necessarily have a deterrent effect. But other crimes not involving serial rapists and murderers, such as a spur of the moment crime of passion whereby one murders their cheating spouse will likely also not be deterred, because the consequences of their actions is likely the lowest priority in the killers mind.

    The biggest issue with harsh laws promptly applied is the drastically increased risk of executing an innocent person. A posthumous pardon does nothing to bring back the life of the innocent person. We have to be absolutely sure the person is guilty.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusha View Post
    While I disagree with your position on this topic, Pete, my heart does go out to you. I would call for the death of ANY adult who molests a child or rapes another individual. My reason is because I see it as the only way to protect future victims. However, that doesn't mean that more effort shouldn't be made in support and understanding towards the victims who are conflicted with such outcomes.
    You actually surprised me with your position on this, considering how liberal you are in many of your other positions. I do understand your line of thinking, and I’m not totally against what you’re saying. However, I’m a firm believer that if it is possible for someone to reform and redeem themselves, they should be given that chance.


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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemeorhateme View Post
    You make a fair point here. However, a murderer has taken the decision away from another person over whether or not they live or die. They have chosen to prematurely end the life of another, and so it seems fitting that the punishment for such is to lose ones own life.



    Such laws can have a deterrent effect on some people, sure. But for someone who is say driven to murder and wants to be a serial killer, or someone who is driven to rape and wants to be a serial rapist, I don’t think any law one imposes, or any penalty as a result of that will necessarily have a deterrent effect. But other crimes not involving serial rapists and murderers, such as a spur of the moment crime of passion whereby one murders their cheating spouse will likely also not be deterred, because the consequences of their actions is likely the lowest priority in the killers mind.

    The biggest issue with harsh laws promptly applied is the drastically increased risk of executing an innocent person. A posthumous pardon does nothing to bring back the life of the innocent person. We have to be absolutely sure the person is guilty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusha View Post
    That would depend ... did they refuse to take out the trash or did they beat the next door neighbor's child to death with a baseball bat? It should be fairly obvious to all that there is a difference
    between being a brat as compared to a maniacal predator.
    Of course there is a difference. So the question then arises what does the Bible mean by “disobedient children”?


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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemeorhateme View Post
    You make a fair point here. However, a murderer has taken the decision away from another person over whether or not they live or die. They have chosen to prematurely end the life of another, and so it seems fitting that the punishment for such is to lose ones own life.
    an eye for an eye - a principle that has some justification

    kinda hard to apply to rape and adultery

    without cracking jokes


    Such laws can have a deterrent effect on some people, sure. But for someone who is say driven to murder and wants to be a serial killer, or someone who is driven to rape and wants to be a serial rapist, I donít think any law one imposes, or any penalty as a result of that will necessarily have a deterrent effect.
    i don't know much about serial killers' motivations other than what we're all familiar with from pop culture, but i would suspect that a lot of the appeal is in risking getting caught and getting away with it - the gamble makes it exciting

    to be an effective deterrent, a punishment must be sure, swift and harsh

    this is recognized in the military, both in controlling behavior in the ranks, and in the imposition of martial law

    But other crimes not involving serial rapists and murderers, such as a spur of the moment crime of passion whereby one murders their cheating spouse will likely also not be deterred, because the consequences of their actions is likely the lowest priority in the killers mind.
    it would be interesting to see data separating "crime of passion" murder from all the other kinds - not sure how you'd go about doing that - is a driveby shooting of one gang member by a different gang's member a crime of passion?

    The biggest issue with harsh laws promptly applied is the drastically increased risk of executing an innocent person. A posthumous pardon does nothing to bring back the life of the innocent person. We have to be absolutely sure the person is guilty.
    i have a difficulty with this line of argumentation - it's often put forward by those who are anti-capital punishment

    my difficulty is this - yes, a wrongfully convicted person may be released after, let's say thirty years of imprisonment, during which he has missed being a father to his children, a husband to his wife, a son and brother to his family, an opportunity to build a career during his most productive years, on top of enduring thirty years of degradation as a prisoner - how do you pretend that you can make up for any of that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    an eye for an eye - a principle that has some justification

    kinda hard to apply to rape and adultery
    That's why the Bible didn't do that.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
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    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemeorhateme View Post
    You actually surprised me with your position on this, considering how liberal you are in many of your other positions. I do understand your line of thinking, and Iím not totally against what youíre saying. However, Iím a firm believer that if it is possible for someone to reform and redeem themselves, they should be given that chance.
    When it comes to things such as abortion and protecting children and adults from sexual assault and violence I am extremely conservative. I don't see anyone who molests or rapes a child as someone as deserving of living their life freely because they have committed such an atrocious crime. It's up to them to see the error of their ways, ask for forgiveness and make his/her peace with God and the family of the victim.
    Don't let the pettiness of life prevent you from enjoying God's plenty. ― Bernard Kelvin Clive

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusha View Post
    When it comes to things such as abortion and protecting children and adults from sexual assault and violence I am extremely conservative. I don't see anyone who molests or rapes a child as someone as deserving of living their life freely because they have committed such an atrocious crime. It's up to them to see the error of their ways, ask for forgiveness and make his/her peace with God and the family of the victim.
    Conservative is the wrong way to describe this stance. You're not seeking to conserve current standards. To be accurate, you'd be right-wing.

    Or just "right."
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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  22. #43
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    If justice is served by stoning to death adulterers according to the law, then justice was not served for King David according to the law.
    And King David broke the law both physically and of the heart (lusting after another man's wife).

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    If justice is served by stoning to death adulterers according to the law, then justice was not served for King David according to the law.

    ok


    prolly too late to dig him up at this point

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    ok


    prolly too late to dig him up at this point
    Dig him up???
    Is that supposed to be another example of your "rational discussion"?
    He was alive when he was guilty of adultery.
    Why wasn't he stoned to death?

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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