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Thread: Robert's Gospel According to the Apostle Paul

  1. #1936
    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Obviously they multiplied.

    Can you show us where in Genesis 5 it says how many children each man had?

    All I see is that they had "other sons and daughters".
    Then you are off to a good start. Sons is plural. Daughters is plural. That makes a minimal of four, except if it was merely four it would be as easy to say "two sons and two daughters" thus more than four children is strongly implied. In the case of Adam and Eve this is clearly proved:

    Cain, who killed Abel, and
    Abel, who was killed by Seth, and
    Seth, who was born after Abel was killed,
    + at least two daughters.

    In the other instances (using Seth as an example) It gives the name of his primary heir (Enos) and then it says that afterwards he begat sons and daughters.

    Primary Heir (such as Enos)
    + sons (plural, at least 2)
    + daughters (plural, at least 2)

    That's five at the barest minimum, likewise more because otherwise you might as well name the sons and daughters.

    And if you believe the Biblical account, people had children between ages 65 to 500 years of age. And that's not even the last child, that's the age which they gave birth to their heir (it doesn't necessarily say they were the first born.)Not necessarily the first and usually not the last. That's a lot of time to have sons and daughters, and it isn't as if they had a shortage of lands to expand which would constrain their numbers.

    Farming families today often have many children upwards of five, like eight or nine. Why would five children per family be an unbelievable figure for the world before the Flood? Why would you chaff at population numbers calculated on a conservative numbers like five to eight children per family?

    Five to eight children per family when they live upwards of nine hundred years??? How is that a wild figure?

    I find it odd that with a population of 17 billion people, only one would be righteous.

    I'm not disputing that Noah was the only righteous man, I just find it odd that of 17 billion he would be the only righteous.
    Do you believe that people are born righteous and somehow lose their way? Or that we are born into corruption and our heart is evil from our youth, and that to find righteousness we must pursue the Lord and haply seek him? I'm not sure that objection of yours properly belongs on this thread topic, but perhaps more in the concept of "original sin."

    If we use today's growth rate, and apply it from Adam to Noah, the earth's population would be a little over 5,000 when the rains came.
    If the earth population was only 5000, why would God use a worldwide flood to destroy the earth? Did you marry folks at age 30 or age 300? Did they have "sons and daughters" during that time or did they follow China's one-child one-family rule? Productively, can you show your work and your stated assumptions to show why you come up with such a different figure?

  2. #1937
    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    That makes a minimal of four, except if it was merely four it would be as easy to say "two sons and two daughters" thus more than four children is strongly implied.
    1) Adam
    2) Seth
    3) Enosh
    4) Kenan
    5) Mahalalel
    6) Jared
    7) Enoch
    8) Methuselah
    9) Lamech
    10) Noah

    Geometric progression is every female having 4 children (2 boys & 2 girls). This is an exponential increase in which the population doubles each generation.

    So, if each female had 2 boys and 2 girls, then the population would be 512 people when Noah was born.

    If each female had 3 boys and 3 girls, then the population would be 39,366 when Noah was born.

    If each female had 4 boys and 4 girls, then the population would be 524,288 when Noah was born.

    The youngest male to have a child in Genesis 5 is 65 years old. Some of the men were over 100 when they had their first child.

    A greater generational interval significantly slows the growth of population.

    EXAMPLE:

    6 children per couple:

    " With a 20 year generation interval, the total number of people at the end of 60 years is 80 (2 + 6 + 18 + 54). With a 30 year generation interval, the total number of people at the end of 60 years is 26 (2 + 6 + 18). Increasing the generation interval from 20 to 30 years reduces the population growth from 80 to 26 during a 60 year period, a percent decrease of 67.5%. A longer generation interval significantly slows the growth of a population." SOURCE
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Why would we use today's growth rate when people were living to be ~10 times older then?
    If a couple has 6 children and both die before they turn 30, it is no different than them having 6 children and both dying at age 800, when it comes to determining growth rate.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    Matt 24:1-2KJV And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    Luke 21:5-6KJV And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
    As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    Jesus' prophecy concerning complete removal technically concerned the temple.
    NOW as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury, (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done,) Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall as enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison, as were the towers also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind. Josephus


    1Ki 9:7KJV Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Are you that unwilling to ever get along that you would make such a statement?
    You're welcome.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

  6. #1941
    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    1) Adam
    2) Seth
    3) Enosh
    4) Kenan
    5) Mahalalel
    6) Jared
    7) Enoch
    8) Methuselah
    9) Lamech
    10) Noah

    Geometric progression is every female having 4 children (2 boys & 2 girls). This is an exponential increase in which the population doubles each generation.

    So, if each female had 2 boys and 2 girls, then the population would be 512 people when Noah was born.

    If each female had 3 boys and 3 girls, then the population would be 39,366 when Noah was born.

    If each female had 4 boys and 4 girls, then the population would be 524,288 when Noah was born.

    The youngest male to have a child in Genesis 5 is 65 years old. Some of the men were over 100 when they had their first child.

    A greater generational interval significantly slows the growth of population.

    EXAMPLE:

    6 children per couple:

    " With a 20 year generation interval, the total number of people at the end of 60 years is 80 (2 + 6 + 18 + 54). With a 30 year generation interval, the total number of people at the end of 60 years is 26 (2 + 6 + 18). Increasing the generation interval from 20 to 30 years reduces the population growth from 80 to 26 during a 60 year period, a percent decrease of 67.5%. A longer generation interval significantly slows the growth of a population." SOURCE
    So you used the ten generations from Adam to Noah as your generation interval for population growth? Then to top if off you pulled the "minimum of four" out of its context to use four children rather than the modest five (the heir plus other sons and daughters) that was stated as the minimum listed for those patriarchs? No wonder your math was off.

    http://www.wardricker.com/timegrowth.php (try it)

    "If, as you have suggested, human beings have been on earth for 1600 years and produced another generation each 60 years, that would mean that 26 generations have passed since humans first "arrived" on earth. If we started with 2 people, and each couple in each generation had produced 5 children, with 90 percent of those living long enough to in turn reproduce, the population of the earth for the current generation would be 2,869,296,751 people."

    Let's consider Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, and Seth. We don't know how old Adam and Eve were when they first had Cain and Abel, but we know at some point they had grown old enough for one of them to be able to murder the other one. There is no specific mention made of the names of any daughters at this point, but this is easily deduced because Cain also had a wife (Gen 4:16). The first mention of their next son is Seth, conceived when Adam was 130 years old, and then it makes mention of "and he begat sons and daughters."

    Cain and Abel and Cain's wife and Seth and Seth's wife makes five there that we know about, and then it also mentions "sons and daughters" which are unnamed. How many does that imply as a bare minimum?

    http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-1.htm

    "The number of Adam's children, as says the old tradition was thirty-three sons, and twenty-three daughters."

    Those types of numbers are going to break your calculations open. When you own the entire world in health and you can have children spread out over many years, it's going to look a bit different. Your children are going to be having grandchildren while you are still having more children. And unless there was something different about our physical makeup at that time (maybe there was) a teenager could start having their own children.

    As some reminders about the earth condition:

    1) There was no rain, and no need for rain, water came from the mist from the ground... so no crop shortages.
    2) There was plenty of food, so much that God eating flesh (of animals) was forbidden until after the Flood when the world was less hospitable
    3) Human lifespans approaching 1000 years is a good indication that disease was not as prevailing as it is today
    4) The surface of the planet was not filled with oceans as it is today, the water was under the crust and in the atmosphere

    Humanity was far better equipped for multiplying then than now. Take 900 year lifespans and 5 to 56 children into those calculators and the numbers come out with astronomical amounts of zeros. The limiting factor is the technology they would develop to feed everyone (lessened by that the greenhouse Earth would have produced food in abundance) and the murderous heart of man killing one another.

    Maybe next time you're putting numbers in the calculator, don't skimp and pull a sentence of mine out of context for "4" when I'm already being overly kind when saying "the bible statements themselves allow for no less than five."

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Maybe next time you're putting numbers in the calculator, don't skimp and pull a sentence of mine out of context for "4" when I'm already being overly kind when saying "the bible statements themselves allow for no less than five."
    Remember that reading lecture you gave me? Here is what I said:

    If each female had 4 boys and 4 girls, then the population would be 524,288 when Noah was born.
    4 boys and 4 girls = 8 children per female.

    Anyways, I'm done wasting my time imagining how many people were on planet earth when the flood came.

    No one knows, especially you and me.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

  8. #1943
    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    Jesus' prophecy concerning complete removal technically concerned the temple.
    Correct.

    The Dispensationalists and Futurists are so afraid of the events that took place in Jerusalem from 66AD - 70AD because they have the prophecies from Jesus that describe these events as yet future unfulfilled prophecies.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    but should leave as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall as enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison, as were the towers also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was,
    The above statement by Josephus is used by many deniers. They claim that since the three towers were spared, and part of a wall was spared, that what happened in 70AD isn't the fulfillment of Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

    A few comments:

    First off, at the time the Romans came, Jerusalem had three layers of walls. The three towers Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne were located at Herod's Palace in the second wall. Herod's palace was located on the western mountain across from what is today known as the temple mount.

    So, first off, there is no way the wall today known as the "western wall" is the wall mentioned by Josephus above.

    Secondly, while it may have been Titus' desire to leave the 3 towers and part of the wall, Josephus later said "all the towers" were destroyed, and we know from subsequent eye-witnesses such as Hadrian, the Bordeaux Pilgrim, and others that there was not 3 towers or part of a wall when they visited the city a short time later.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    Body part Right Divider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    If a couple has 6 children and both die before they turn 30, it is no different than them having 6 children and both dying at age 800, when it comes to determining growth rate.
    Why would you think that a couple that lives 10 times longer would still have the same number of children?

    Your usual fallacious reasoning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

  11. #1946
    TOL Subscriber George Affleck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    OK, I honestly don't understand the question, but I'm leaning towards "no".
    Having God, possessing His favour and love, is of infinitely greater value than the combined things the world contains.

    God will take those who love Him to heaven to be with Him forever and He will leave those behind who willfully reject Him.
    But to have once possessed all the blessings that pertain to Him, and His promises of Messiah, and to reject and kill Him when He came, was the greatest loss ever in history. The penalty for this was to take the Kingdom and give it to others. Mat 25:29-30KJV

    Even without the understanding of why the loss occurred, it was still the greatest suffering of all time.
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

  12. #1947
    Body part Right Divider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    Having God, possessing His favour and love, is of infinitely greater value than the combined things the world contains.

    God will take those who love Him to heaven to be with Him forever and He will leave those behind who willfully reject Him.
    But to have once possessed all the blessings that pertain to Him, and His promises of Messiah, and to reject and kill Him when He came, was the greatest loss ever in history. The penalty for this was to take the Kingdom and give it to others. Mat 25:29-30KJV

    Even without the understanding of why the loss occurred, it was still the greatest suffering of all time.
    Mat 25:29-30 KJV For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. (30) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Please explain the use of theses verses to "prove" your point.

    Mat 21:42-45 KJV Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? (43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (44) And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. (45) And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

    This passage clearly shows WHO held the kingdom of God at that time (i.e., the corrupt leadership of Israel).

    Jesus also describes WHO He will given that same kingdom of God after it is taken away from the corrupt leadership.

    Luk 12:31-32 KJV But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. (32) Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

    The believing remnant of Israel (headed by the twelve apostles for the twelve tribes of Israel) is given the kingdom. This is the SAME kingdom that the apostles (and Christ) were discussing in the first chapter of Acts.

    Act 1:1-9 KJV The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, (2) Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: (3) To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: (4) And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. (5) For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. (6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? (7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. (9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

    They understood perfectly what the kingdom of God was that the Lord was teaching them about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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  14. #1948
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Remember that reading lecture you gave me? Here is what I said:

    4 boys and 4 girls = 8 children per female.

    Anyways, I'm done wasting my time imagining how many people were on planet earth when the flood came.

    No one knows, especially you and me.
    If you were using EIGHT then that's even worse, your math really doesn't line up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    Matt 24:1-2KJV And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    Luke 21:5-6KJV And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
    As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    Jesus' prophecy concerning complete removal technically concerned the temple.
    NOW as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury, (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done,) Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall as enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison, as were the towers also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind. Josephus


    1Ki 9:7KJV Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:
    Luke 19 speaks of all Jerusalem left with not one stone upon another. That didn't happen. Josephus said so.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

  16. #1950
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    How to debate as a Preterism, AKA Barbituartism, proponent-memorize these answers, which comprise 90% of your needed responses, and can be employed to "answer" any challenge:

    1. Fulfilled AD 70,
    2. According to Josephus,Wikipedia,.....,
    3. Fulfilled in Christ,
    4. Figurative...metaphor...symbolic....,
    4. Fulfilled AD 70.


    You can then relax.
    Saint John W

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