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Thread: Robert's Gospel According to the Apostle Paul

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    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    You and I don't get along and never will but ...
    Are you that unwilling to ever get along that you would make such a statement?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    1. The "destruction of every living thing in every city on the planet" in the time of Noah is certainly more devastating than "the deaths of many in one city on the planet" in the time of Josephus.
    You, nor anyone else has no idea whatsoever how many people died in the flood.

    2. Jesus wasn't using qualifiers of "only within a single city" - you created that to try to keep your underweight contender in the ring. The question was in response to "what will be the signs of the end of the world" and the last I checked, "Jerusalem" was not "the world."
    End of an age, not world

    (Matt24:3) As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”


    The end of the age was the end of the Old Covenant.

    It happened in 70AD

    Do you see the disciples asking him "What shall be the sign of the end of Jerusalem?"
    They asked Him when the end of the age would be, not the end of the world.

    The end of the age (old covenant) had no bearing on the rest of the Gentile world, it only pertained to the Jews.

    Because I sure don't; it's not in the text.
    Word: aiwn

    Pronounce: ahee-ohn'

    Strongs Number: G165

    Orig: from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550. G104

    There may be a specific line for those who are in Judaea to flee to the mountains, but again, [B]that's the whole country of Judaea, not a single city.
    Um, thats because the Romans started killing the Jews outside of Jerusalem in Judaea, when they entered Judaea, while on their way to the city.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    You, nor anyone else has no idea whatsoever how many people died in the flood.
    We do know that men were "multiplied" (Gen 6:1) and that the scale was planetary.

    End of an age, not world

    (Matt24:3) As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

    The end of the age was the end of the Old Covenant.

    It happened in 70AD
    The Old Covenant was terminated when the temple veil was rent, when they murdered the other party to the covenant. Covenants last "until death do us part." Zechariah 11:11 says "it was broken in that day" in the context of "so they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver." If the Old Covenant is "an age" then that age ended at the cross.

    The destruction of Jerusalem was the not end of an age. It broke the back of Jewish pride and culture and fulfilled other signs, but it was not the end of an age, unless you thought Jerusalem was the entire world. I mean age. "The age of Jerusalem?" Then why the description of Christ's return and his holy angels?

    They asked Him when the end of the age would be, not the end of the world.
    Whatever. No age ended in 70 AD.

    Um, thats because the Romans started killing the Jews outside of Jerusalem in Judaea, when they entered Judaea, while on their way to the city.
    I thought you said that the only thing that counted was within city limits? Yet now you are conceding that tribulation can apply outside the bounds of a city. So why should the tribulation of Europe not be counted as tribulation that likewise caused grief, but for many people, on greater scale, and for longer time?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    3. Finally, let's talk about the end of the world,
    It was the end of an age, the old covenant.

    Ok, let's talk about it.
    In the end of the world, [B]the field of the world is only Jerusalem,
    The Jews. They were the only people at the time under the old covenant.

    the righteous and wicked are judged and the wicked are burned up:
    Correct. The tares (wicked) are burned up first.

    the wicked are no more.
    Correct. The unbelieving Jews who killed Christ Jesus were no more.

    In your scenario, the Roman soldiers must be the angels
    Nope.

    The seven angels of the seven trumpets and bowls of Revelation.

    the Jews are the tares,
    The unbelieving Jews.

    and the rest of Rome and its citizens are the wheat?
    No, the Christians are the wheat.

    Thus afterwards Rome continued onward to "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father?"
    No, that would be the Christian church.

    All of that breaks apart.
    No, it all aligns perfectly with scripture.

    The destruction of one single city (no matter how large) is not greater tribulation than Noah's flood,
    The prophecy was for that city.

    1. The world did not end in 70 A.D
    Correct. It was the Old Covenant that ended in 70AD

    2. Jesus did not return with his holy angels and judge between the righteous and the wicked in 70 A.D.
    Yes He did.

    The dead were not raised to meet him in the air in 70 A.D.
    It doesn't say the dead meet Him in the air.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    It was the end of an age, the old covenant.

    Ok, let's talk about it.

    The Jews. They were the only people at the time under the old covenant.

    Correct. The tares (wicked) are burned up first.

    Correct. The unbelieving Jews who killed Christ Jesus were no more.

    Nope.

    The seven angels of the seven trumpets and bowls of Revelation.
    Where were these angels? I don't think anyone heard any angels or any trumpets.

    The unbelieving Jews.

    No, the Christians are the wheat.

    No, that would be the Christian church.
    The ROMAN church went out to shine brightly as the sun? The Dark Ages are your idea of shining brightly?

    No, it all aligns perfectly with scripture.

    The prophecy was for that city.

    Correct. It was the Old Covenant that ended in 70AD
    What sign do you have to show the covenant ended then? The temple had been destroyed in times prior, and that didn't end the covenant. What is the base minimum you need to have a covenant?

    Yes He did.

    It doesn't say the dead meet Him in the air.
    Does your scripture have 1 Thessalonians?

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV
    (13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    (14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    (18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    Don't be ignorant.... the dead will rise to meet Christ in the air when he returns. It's not the type of thing that doesn't get noticed.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    We do know that men were "multiplied" (Gen 6:1) and that the scale was planetary.
    Doesn't matter. You nor anyone else knows how many people died in the flood.
    The Old Covenant was terminated when the temple veil was rent, when they murdered the other party to the covenant.
    The 7 feasts were part of the OC. Christ Jesus fulfilled the first 4 during His Incarnation. The 3 fall feasts were not fulfilled until 70AD.

    The writer of Hebrews makes it clear there was an overlap of the covenants, and tells us that the OC was still in place (though obsolete) when Hebrews was written, but would soon disappear.

    (Heb 8:13) By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.


    Covenants last "until death do us part." Zechariah 11:11 says "it was broken in that day" in the context of "so they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver." If the Old Covenant is "an age" then that age ended at the cross.
    See Hebrews 8:13.

    Don't why Heb 8:13 is so hard for you to understand.

    The destruction of Jerusalem was the not end of an age.
    Yes it was.

    It was the end of the temple, the High Priest, the Levitical Priesthood, etc.

    It broke the back of Jewish pride and culture and fulfilled other signs, but it was not the end of an age, unless you thought Jerusalem was the entire world.
    The oracles of God were entrusted to the Jews.

    (Rom 3:2) Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.
    Rom 3:2 is no longer true.

    The mystery was completed in 70AD.

    (Rev 10:7) But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."

    The 7th trumpet sounded in 70AD. The mystery of God was accomplished. There is no longer Jew & Gentile. The Gentiles have become fellow heirs in the promise.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    "Whereas the war which the Jews made with the Romans, hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that ever were heard of; both of those wherein cities have fought against cities, or nations against nations;" Josephus, Preface, Wars of the Jews.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    What sign do you have to show the covenant ended then?
    Christ Jesus fulfilled the Law and Prophets.

    The Law and Prophets were fulfilled in 70AD.

    In addition to the fulfillment of the feasts I mentioned earlier, there was many prophecies in the OT that were not fulfilled until the complete destruction of the temple.

    When the Babylonians destroyed the first temple, it wasn't the completion of the Law and Prophets. God was still having prophets write down prophecies after the first temple was destroyed, and the promised Messiah hadn't been sent yet.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Does your scripture have 1 Thessalonians?
    Since you brought up 1 Thessalonians.

    (1 Thess 3:13 KJV) To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    (1 Thess 4:15 KJV) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    (1 Thess 5:23 KJV) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


    (2 Thess 2:1 KJV) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

    Are all three of the bolded "coming of the Lord" the same event?
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Third, Luke 19:44 refutes the use of Josephus,
    LOL...you've been running and hiding from Luke 19:44 for many years now.

    You still have no answer for it.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Doesn't matter. You nor anyone else knows how many people died in the flood.
    Yes we do. All of the generations of the earth from Adam, fulfilling the commandment to "be fruitful and multiply" when they continued to have children until they were five hundred years old, over a sixteen hundred year period ... minus eight.

    "Although it is difficult to obtain an actual value of world population at the time of the flood, 5 to17 billion people would appear to be reasonable populations, with an average of around 10 billion. The best ages for childbirth would be 80.8 to 92 years with 6 to 7 children per family. This would be 20 to 18 generations produced from Adam to the Flood in 1656. The Book of Genesis indicates (Chapter 5) that each family had at least 5 children. Adam and Eve had a total of 7 (including Abel). However, Noah apparently had only 3 children. (It is possible that he could have had sons and daughters that aren't recorded and who weren't on the ark.)"

    Courtesy of http://www.ldolphin.org/pickett.html

    So let's take the low estimate of five billion and subtract eight

    That makes 5,000,000,000 - 8 = 4,999,999,992 people killed by the Great Flood as a conservative estimate.

    The 7 feasts were part of the OC. Christ Jesus fulfilled the first 4 during His Incarnation. The 3 fall feasts were not fulfilled until 70AD.
    You're not making rational sense. The Old Covenant was part and parcel together as a package. You cannot separate one item from others: if you are guilty of breaking the law in part, you are guilty of breaking the law in whole (see James 2:10). Whether any or all elements of that Old Covenant were foreshadowing of things to come is irrelevant.

    The principle of a covenant is that it is an agreement made between two parties. It is either intact in whole or broken in whole. Under what conditions can a covenant be broken?

    The writer of Hebrews makes it clear there was an overlap of the covenants, and tells us that the OC was still in place (though obsolete) when Hebrews was written, but would soon disappear.

    (Heb 8:13) By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

    Hebrews 8:13 KJV
    (13) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

    Something does not "decay and wax old" while it is still in effect. It "decays and waxes old" when it has already been cut off. The living does not decay, but that which is dead is subject to decay. You are contradicted by your own proof-text: that old covenant was already terminated, and the only thing remaining to "decay and wax old and vanish away" were the dead remnants that were reminders of its former existence, such as the temple, its rites, and those that practiced them. A living covenant is not said to be in decay.

    And even with your wording, a covenant that is in effect is not "obsolete" by the very virtue of still being in effect.

    The mystery was completed in 70AD.

    (Rev 10:7) But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."

    The 7th trumpet sounded in 70AD. The mystery of God was accomplished. There is no longer Jew & Gentile. The Gentiles have become fellow heirs in the promise.
    Christ returns with the last trumpet with his saints, Paul said that on his return the dead saints rise to meet him in the air. You already said that the dead did not rise to meet Christ in the air in 70 A.D. Your own words contradict your premise that "all New Testament prophecy was already fulfilled."

    How many times do you need to contradict yourself before you are willing to consider that you might have made a miscalculation along the way? Paul says that type of error (of saying the resurrection is past or not to come) is a dangerous error, a canker, that would overthrow the faith.

    2 Timothy 2:16-18 KJV
    (16) But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
    (17) And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
    (18) Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

    The resurrection of the dead is one of the prophesies of both Old Testament and New. So is it past already? You said it didn't happen. But you also said that no more prophecy was to be fulfilled, so in effect you're really saying that it will never occur at all.
    Last edited by Rosenritter; January 10th, 2019 at 07:43 PM. Reason: bEC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Yes we do.
    Nope.

    No one knows. The fact that you are trying to prove your theory correct, when it's impossible to do so, says a lot about you.

    5 to17 billion people would appear to be reasonable populations
    17 billion people, and only 1 righteous guy.....ok.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Nope.

    No one knows. The fact that you are trying to prove your theory correct, when it's impossible to do so, says a lot about you.

    17 billion people, and only 1 righteous guy.....ok.
    So they didn't multiply across the face of the earth, and that the records of the amounts of children they gave birth too were abnormal and not representative of the general population, and that the lifespans recorded were either freak happenings or just plain lies?

    But, your last comment... you do not believe that there was only one man righteous and pure in his generations? Because that's the biblical story.

    Genesis 6:13 KJV
    (13) And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

    2 Peter 2:5 KJV
    (5) And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

    That's the prior context for discerning what scripture means when it speaks of the end of the world and no flesh being saved alive. Claiming that "the end of the world" and "greater tribulation there never has been and never will" of which unless God intervenes "no flesh shall be saved alive" is the destruction of a single city is rather preposterous.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    So they didn't multiply across the face of the earth,
    Obviously they multiplied.

    and that the records of the amounts of children they gave birth too were abnormal and not representative of the general population,
    Can you show us where in Genesis 5 it says how many children each man had?

    All I see is that they had "other sons and daughters".

    But, your last comment... you do not believe that there was only one man righteous and pure in his generations?
    I find it odd that with a population of 17 billion people, only one would be righteous.

    I'm not disputing that Noah was the only righteous man, I just find it odd that of 17 billion he would be the only righteous.

    If we use today's growth rate, and apply it from Adam to Noah, the earth's population would be a little over 5,000 when the rains came.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    If we use today's growth rate, and apply it from Adam to Noah, the earth's population would be a little over 5,000 when the rains came.
    Why would we use today's growth rate when people were living to be ~10 times older then?
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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