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Thread: Robert's Gospel According to the Apostle Paul

  1. #1906
    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Someone has to be really devoted to the fairy tale of preterism in order to deny what the Bible AND his prized source, Josephus, both say. So sad but typical of leftists.
    Josephus confirms that everything Christ Jesus prophesied about Jerusalem did in fact take place from 66AD - 70AD.

    Moreover, everything prophesied in Revelation concerning the temple and Jerusalem is confirmed by the writings of Josephus.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    Body part Right Divider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    But wait.....you MADists teach that Israel was set aside in mid-Acts.

    Why would God still be dealing with unbelieving Israel 25 - 30 years after mid-Acts?
    After effects.

    Please start a new thread. You've run this one far enough off-topic.

    Start one about how Jesus returned to set foot on Mount Olivet per Zechariah 14 (with Act 1:9-12).
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    TOL Subscriber George Affleck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Exodus 32:31-32 KJV
    (31) And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
    (32) Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

    Like that?
    No
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

  5. #1909
    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    After effects.
    (Luke 19:43) The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side.

    " When Titus had therefore encompassed the city with this wall, and put garrisons into proper places, be went round the wall...... So all hope of escaping was now cut off from the Jews, together with their liberty of going out of the city." - Josephus, Wars of the Jews, 5.12.3-4
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    TOL Subscriber musterion's Avatar
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    Preterism:

    Luke 19:44
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

  7. #1911
    TOL Legend john w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Preterism:

    Luke 19:44
    It is also known as " Barbituartism"- a real downer, man...

    I no longer debate with the likes of Craig on this "Preterism," this......





    ...as most sane people find it quite amusing, but harmless, and quite docile, no threat, and do not take it seriously.
    Saint John W

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    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Yes it was, and yes it is.

    Name one city that suffered more, either before 70AD, or after 70AD?
    The whole planet that we now call Earth, back when the entire world spoke Hebrew, when the first rain began to fall. The whole planet is an order of magnitude larger than a puny city of said planet.

  9. #1913
    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    LOL.....so, those dead 10 trillion people turned into coal and petroleum in less than 5,000 years?

    I wonder why so many of those people lived in West Virginia back then?
    I guess neither math nor science are your strong suits. Coal, petroleum, diamonds, and fossils don't take a long time to form. They merely need the right ingredients and conditions Where ever you have enough biomass (from people, plants, and animals) buried under post-flood conditions you're going to get the results.

    http://www.wiseoldgoat.com/papers-cr...ml#formingcoal

    "Atheists say: “Well, it takes millions of years to form coal.” - “No, it doesn't. Coal can be formed in a few hours.” There have been many experiments done where they form coal very quickly."

    "Petrified trees in Alabama are standing up, running through two different coal seams. Oftentimes coal seams, go and dig along, pretty soon they come together; branching coal seams. Absolute proof they formed very quickly. Not millions of years different in age..."

    "And human made artifacts are found in coal from time to time:

    • Here is a bell found inside a lump of coal.
    • Here is a vessel found in solid rock, supposed to be ‘600 million years old’.


    So yes, that coal from West Virginia that we used to burn as fuel.... is made from people.

  10. #1914
    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Nope.

    50,000 died at Nagasaki.

    100,000 at Tokyo

    25,000 at Dresden

    According to Josephus, 1.1 million people died in Jerusalem.
    Close to three million Jews in occupied Poland and between 700,000 and 2.5 million Jews in the Soviet Union were killed. Hundreds of thousands more died in the rest of Europe.

    And that's not counting the Russian Communist holocaust which was much larger. WW2 was certainly a greater tribulation. You seem to lack perspective. If we skip Noah's Flood that destroyed all life on the planet save eight souls and a few pets, here's even what the non-bible believers acknowledge (below):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_death_toll

    Starting with greater and moving towards lesser, the Roman-Jerusalem conflict comes in 44 on the list.

    Considering that Jesus said it would be greater than anything that had ever happened, and the worst tribulation upon the earth up to that time had killed everyone but eight people, I'm inclined to think that his estimation that this GREATER Tribulation meant that unless the LORD should intervene, that "no flesh should be saved alive" that "no flesh" was meant in the literal sense.

  11. #1915
    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    No
    OK, I honestly don't understand the question, but I'm leaning towards "no".

  12. #1916
    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Close to three million Jews in occupied Poland and between 700,000 and 2.5 million Jews in the Soviet Union were killed. Hundreds of thousands more died in the rest of Europe.

    And that's not counting the Russian Communist holocaust which was much larger. WW2 was certainly a greater tribulation. You seem to lack perspective. If we skip Noah's Flood that destroyed all life on the planet save eight souls and a few pets, here's even what the non-bible believers acknowledge (below):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_death_toll

    Starting with greater and moving towards lesser, the Roman-Jerusalem conflict comes in 44 on the list.

    Considering that Jesus said it would be greater than anything that had ever happened, and the worst tribulation upon the earth up to that time had killed everyone but eight people, I'm inclined to think that his estimation that this GREATER Tribulation meant that unless the LORD should intervene, that "no flesh should be saved alive" that "no flesh" was meant in the literal sense.
    The great tribulation was to happen to people in one city.

    Nothing more devastating before, or after what happened to the Jews in Jerusalem in 70ad is still true today.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    TOL Subscriber musterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    It is also known as " Barbituartism"- a real downer, man...

    I no longer debate with the likes of Craig on this "Preterism," this......





    ...as most sane people find it quite amusing, but harmless, and quite docile, no threat, and do not take it seriously.
    You're right. Preterism is dying out anyway since it gives people nothing to hope for.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

  14. #1918
    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    The great tribulation was to happen to people in one city.

    Nothing more devastating before, or after what happened to the Jews in Jerusalem in 70ad is still true today.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    1. The "destruction of every living thing in every city on the planet" in the time of Noah is certainly more devastating than "the deaths of many in one city on the planet" in the time of Josephus.

    2. Jesus wasn't using qualifiers of "only within a single city" - you created that to try to keep your underweight contender in the ring. The question was in response to "what will be the signs of the end of the world" and the last I checked, "Jerusalem" was not "the world."

    Matthew 24:3 KJV
    (3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


    Do you see the disciples asking him "What shall be the sign of the end of Jerusalem?" Because I sure don't; it's not in the text. There may be a specific line for those who are in Judaea to flee to the mountains, but again, that's the whole country of Judaea, not a single city.

    3. Finally, let's talk about the end of the world, since the reason you're clinging to an absurdity that "the revolt in Jerusalem was worse than the destruction of the planet in the day of Noah" ...

    Matthew 13:39-42 KJV
    (39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    (40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    (41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    (42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    In the end of the world, the field of the world is only Jerusalem, the righteous and wicked are judged and the wicked are burned up: the wicked are no more. In your scenario, the Roman soldiers must be the angels, the Jews are the tares, and the rest of Rome and its citizens are the wheat? Thus afterwards Rome continued onward to "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father?"

    All of that breaks apart. The destruction of one single city (no matter how large) is not greater tribulation than Noah's flood, it is not greater in grief than the World Wars which spanned more years and claimed more lives, and even your addition of "within a single city" was not a qualifier used by Christ but rather invented to prop up the failing claim.

    Facts:

    1. The world did not end in 70 A.D.
    2. Jesus did not return with his holy angels and judge between the righteous and the wicked in 70 A.D.
    3. The dead were not raised to meet him in the air in 70 A.D.

    4. Far greater tribulation has afflicted this world than the death of one single city, and far greater is threatening it even now.

    Mark 13:19 KJV
    (19) For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

    Here's some more items for perspective:

    "The Black Death is estimated to have killed 30–60% of Europe's total population. In total, the plague may have reduced the world population from an estimated 450 million down to 350–375 million in the 14th century."

    How does over 100 million deaths sound for tribulation? But I still think that's trumped by the destruction of the whole human race down to 8 people.

  15. #1919
    TOL Subscriber musterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    1. The "destruction of every living thing in every city on the planet" in the time of Noah is certainly more devastating than "the deaths of many in one city on the planet" in the time of Josephus.

    2. Jesus wasn't using qualifiers of "only within a single city" - you created that to try to keep your underweight contender in the ring. The question was in response to "what will be the signs of the end of the world" and the last I checked, "Jerusalem" was not "the world."

    Matthew 24:3 KJV
    (3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


    Do you see the disciples asking him "What shall be the sign of the end of Jerusalem?" Because I sure don't; it's not in the text. There may be a specific line for those who are in Judaea to flee to the mountains, but again, that's the whole country of Judaea, not a single city.

    3. Finally, let's talk about the end of the world, since the reason you're clinging to an absurdity that "the revolt in Jerusalem was worse than the destruction of the planet in the day of Noah" ...

    Matthew 13:39-42 KJV
    (39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    (40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    (41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    (42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    In the end of the world, the field of the world is only Jerusalem, the righteous and wicked are judged and the wicked are burned up: the wicked are no more. In your scenario, the Roman soldiers must be the angels, the Jews are the tares, and the rest of Rome and its citizens are the wheat? Thus afterwards Rome continued onward to "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father?"

    All of that breaks apart. The destruction of one single city (no matter how large) is not greater tribulation than Noah's flood, it is not greater in grief than the World Wars which spanned more years and claimed more lives, and even your addition of "within a single city" was not a qualifier used by Christ but rather invented to prop up the failing claim.

    Facts:

    1. The world did not end in 70 A.D.
    2. Jesus did not return with his holy angels and judge between the righteous and the wicked in 70 A.D.
    3. The dead were not raised to meet him in the air in 70 A.D.

    4. Far greater tribulation has afflicted this world than the death of one single city, and far greater is threatening it even now.

    Mark 13:19 KJV
    (19) For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

    Here's some more items for perspective:

    "The Black Death is estimated to have killed 30–60% of Europe's total population. In total, the plague may have reduced the world population from an estimated 450 million down to 350–375 million in the 14th century."

    How does over 100 million deaths sound for tribulation? But I still think that's trumped by the destruction of the whole human race down to 8 people.
    You and I don't get along and never will but I feel I should do a public service and tell you something about Tet you may not already know, but might want to.

    You could make a watertight case from Scripture contextually handled and completely destroy preterism at its very roots -- it's been done for decades and it's been done here on TOL -- but the preterist's hole card is to claim whatever inconvenient passage you cite against him is spiritual/allegorical/not literally true...meaning it has no weight in the argument because he can't respond to it. He's done this hundreds of times to many users. Preterists are notorious for doing this.

    Now, as if that wasn't bad enough, what he'll also do (because he's forced to) is to interpret Scripture in light of extrabiblical writings like Josephus. In fact, you'll notice that Josephus is elevated to the level of Scripture for him in terms of raw weight. Pointing that out gets ignored, he keeps on doing it anyway.

    Third, Luke 19:44 refutes the use of Josephus, a key source of preterist prooftexting, but he holds to it anyway due to a (no kidding) pathological hatred of dispensationalism that sinks as low as demonstrable lies and deliberate slander.

    Just letting you know what you're getting yourself into, if you don't already know.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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  17. #1920
    TOL Legend john w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    You and I don't get along and never will but I feel I should do a public service and tell you something about Tet you may not already know, but might want to.

    You could make a watertight case from Scripture contextually handled and completely destroy preterism at its very roots -- it's been done for decades and it's been done here on TOL -- but the preterist's hole card is to claim whatever inconvenient passage you cite against him is spiritual/allegorical/not literally true...meaning it has no weight in the argument because he can't respond to it. He's done this hundreds of times to many users. Preterists are notorious for doing this.

    Now, as if that wasn't bad enough, what he'll also do (because he's forced to) is to interpret Scripture in light of extrabiblical writings like Josephus. In fact, you'll notice that Josephus is elevated to the level of Scripture for him in terms of raw weight. Pointing that out gets ignored, he keeps on doing it anyway.

    Third, Luke 19:44 refutes the use of Josephus, a key source of preterist prooftexting, but he holds to it anyway due to a (no kidding) pathological hatred of dispensationalism that sinks as low as demonstrable lies and deliberate slander.

    Just letting you know what you're getting yourself into, if you don't already know.
    Well said, musty. And these gems stump us all:

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Jesus never physically returned, and never will physically return to planet earth after He ascended to Heaven.
    vs.

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    And that is what happened. The Lord came in a way that everyone could see Him. However, He never touched planet earth, and when this event was over, He then sat on the throne in Heaven NOT on planet earth.

    "Everyone" that saw Him, according to Barbituartism, was Josephus, and Wikipedia. Wait....According to Barbituartism, he did not return physically, but all of Jerusalem saw him.. And, according to Barbituartism, signs are invisible...



    Wait...

    Vs.

    "Tet is a preterist that believes Christ already returned in 70 AD viathe Roman Army."-Tambora, on another TOL thread


    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Correct, and thanks for making it clear that it was the Roman army that was His return....The Roman army destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD. That is what Jesus meant when He said He will return.
    Shazam, Gomer! Again, Preterism Barbituartism, I find quite amusing, but quite harmless.
    Saint John W

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