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Thread: ST. JOHN 11:26

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    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisgood View Post
    No, they did die. The problem is that we in modern times only think of death as physical. Death is not annihilation. Life continues on eternally as the Bible says the body goes back to where it came from (dust) and the life goes back to the one who gave it (God).

    So, Abraham responding to the man asking for a drop of water to be placed in his tongue while burning in hell means that they are dead and you answer like Alexa when asked "Alexa who is Jesus Christ?" and Alexa answers, "Jesus Christ is a fictional character."

    The man did not want his five brothers to come and visit him in his place of LIVING torment.
    Now, you want to be like Alexa, that's your freedom of choice to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisgood View Post
    Is there a time [or a reason] when you would say that the Holy Spirit would not be "still going on?"
    Not in the general sense, certainly not in the sense that I have heard from some that "The holy spirit is no longer in the world." Perhaps for a specific person or individual, as in Psalms 51:11, "Cast me not away from thy presence, and take not thy holy spirit from me."

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    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisgood View Post
    No, they did die. The problem is that we in modern times only think of death as physical. Death is not annihilation. Life continues on eternally as the Bible says the body goes back to where it came from (dust) and the life goes back to the one who gave it (God).
    The problem is that the Bible itself from ancient times defines death as the cessation of life, knowledge, feeling, emotion, light, anything at all. It does not say that we "live on in another place" but that God himself takes the life back. Your meaning of "never dying" has its derivation from the pagan religions and Greek philosophy...

    ... and ultimately from the first liar, the serpent in Eden.

    So, Abraham responding to the man asking for a drop of water to be placed in his tongue while burning in hell means that they are dead and you answer like Alexa when asked "Alexa who is Jesus Christ?" and Alexa answers, "Jesus Christ is a fictional character."
    It seems that you do not understand the meaning of the word "parable."

    The man did not want his five brothers to come and visit him in his place of LIVING torment.
    Now, you want to be like Alexa, that's your freedom of choice to do so.
    I don't see the word "living" in that parable. But tell me, who were his five brothers? If you think this was a literal account (smack between other parables) then it is your burden of proof to establish that this was somehow not a parable even though it was inserted in the context of parables.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    The problem is that the Bible itself from ancient times defines death as the cessation of life, knowledge, feeling, emotion, light, anything at all. It does not say that we "live on in another place" but that God himself takes the life back. Your meaning of "never dying" has its derivation from the pagan religions and Greek philosophy...

    ... and ultimately from the first liar, the serpent in Eden.
    Rosenritter believes in Soul Sleep. That is a cult belief.



    It seems that you do not understand the meaning of the word "parable."
    Rosenritter thinks we're all dummies......has a problem with being condescending.

    None of the "parables" use names....clue one.



    I don't see the word "living" in that parable. But tell me, who were his five brothers? If you think this was a literal account (smack between other parables) then it is your burden of proof to establish that this was somehow not a parable even though it was inserted in the context of parables.
    It was not inserted smack in the middle of parables.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Rosenritter believes in Soul Sleep. That is a cult belief.

    Rosenritter thinks we're all dummies......has a problem with being condescending.

    None of the "parables" use names....clue one.

    It was not inserted smack in the middle of parables.
    Glory has a problem with "smack talk." Tell me Glory, where is this alleged "rule of parable names" written? In a Dispensationalism handbook? Yes, that's right, it's the Scofield Reference bible where that rule was writ...

    The hilarious part is that the Scofield reference bible contradicts its own "rule" in Ezekiel 23, calling it the parable of Aholah and Aholibah.

    Ezekiel 23:4 KJV
    (4) And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.

    Apparently parables do use proper names. Do you have any other authority for your alleged rule, Glory?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Glory has a problem with "smack talk."
    Oh, it's fine for you to smack talk, but you don't like it when I do it.

    That's a shocker.


    Tell me Glory, where is this alleged "rule of parable names" written? In a Dispensationalism handbook? Yes, that's right, it's the Scofield Reference bible where that rule was writ...
    Are you ever going to learn not to "reword" or "read into" what someone says? I get my knowledge about parables from reading the Scripture and rightly dividing. You know, like the different meanings of "death" or the difference between the "Gospel of the Kingdom" and the "Gospel of Grace". I don't need rules for simple discernment issues.

    The hilarious part is that the Scofield reference bible contradicts its own "rule" in Ezekiel 23, calling it the parable of Aholah and Aholibah.

    Ezekiel 23:4 KJV
    (4) And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.

    Apparently parables do use proper names. Do you have any other authority for your alleged rule, Glory?
    Broaden your search, hypocrite.

    You might even try studying Jesus' parables.

    Or just take the first thing you google.

    The Old Testament employs the broader category of mashal, which refers to all expressions that contain a comparison. ... The stories of Jesus are linked with the heritage of the prophetic parables in the Old Testament (Isaiah 28:23-29; Isaiah 5:1-7; 1 Kings 20:39-43; Ecclesiastes 9:13-16; 2 Samuel 12:1-4).

    In the interim unknot your panties and try to get over yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Oh, it's fine for you to smack talk, but you don't like it when I do it.

    That's a shocker.

    Are you ever going to learn not to "reword" or "read into" what someone says? I get my knowledge about parables from reading the Scripture and rightly dividing. You know, like the different meanings of "death" or the difference between the "Gospel of the Kingdom" and the "Gospel of Grace". I don't need rules for simple discernment issues.



    Broaden your search, hypocrite.

    You might even try studying Jesus' parables.

    Or just take the first thing you google.
    The Old Testament employs the broader category of mashal, which refers to all expressions that contain a comparison. ... The stories of Jesus are linked with the heritage of the prophetic parables in the Old Testament (Isaiah 28:23-29; Isaiah 5:1-7; 1 Kings 20:39-43; Ecclesiastes 9:13-16; 2 Samuel 12:1-4).

    In the interim unknot your panties and try to get over yourself.
    Got it, no authority for your claim other than a hollow "rightly dividing the word of truth" mantra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Got it, no authority for your claim other than a hollow "rightly dividing the word of truth" mantra.
    My "authority" matches your "authority"....plus I have the authority of the righteousness of Christ. He didn't make up a story about the afterlife that was not based on absolute truth....as you claim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Got it, no authority for your claim other than a hollow "rightly dividing the word of truth" mantra.
    It's called Scripture.

    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post

    It seems that you do not understand the meaning of the word "parable."
    Death and Hades is a place for spirits which eventually give up their dead
    Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
    Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Rosenritter believes in Soul Sleep. That is a cult belief.
    Is it a cult belief because it is antithetical to scripture, or is it a cult belief because it is antithetical to traditional beliefs?

    I know that some cults hold to it, but some cults also hold to some Christian truths (like "Jesus Christ lived in history"), and those truths aren't made false by their holding them.

    @Rosenritter pointed out that the Old Testament is replete with references to death as "sleep" and as the person not retaining cognitive ability. Is it really the case that the story of Lazarus and the rich man can undo a good part of the OT's words on death?

    This is a fairly important doctrinal issue, and it deserves a fair hearing, imo. And, also imo, just relying on traditional views of death is not sufficient.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Is it a cult belief because it is antithetical to scripture, or is it a cult belief because it is antithetical to traditional beliefs?
    Both, but mainly because of the former.

    I know that some cults hold to it, but some cults also hold to some Christian truths (like "Jesus Christ lived in history"),
    Even the demons believe that, and tremble.

    and those truths aren't made false by their holding them.
    Agreed.

    Rosenritter pointed out that the Old Testament is replete with references to death as "sleep"
    Something which those of us who reject "soul sleep" acknowledge, and even use as our own defence of being alive after death and fully aware of what is going on around them.

    Sleep is used multiple times in the Bible as a euphemism, "a mild or indirect word or expression substituted for one considered to be too harsh or blunt when referring to something unpleasant or embarrassing," for death.

    And likewise death is used figuratively to describe (even today) to describe sleep (or tiredness, even; eg: "he's dead on his feet", also Revelation 1:17)

    and as the person not retaining cognitive ability.
    There are plenty of scriptures that contradict this assertion.

    For example, Revelation 6:9.

    Is it really the case that the story of Lazarus and the rich man can undo a good part of the OT's words on death?
    Even if the story of the rich man and Lazarus was JUST a parable, one would do well to remember that parables are based on reality, not fiction or fantasy.

    But I believe that that story is also something that actually happened, because of what is said throughout the Bible, in particular, about the laws concerning cities of refuge, mentioned in Exodus 21, Numbers 35, Deuteronomy 4, Deuteronomy 19, Joshua 20, and many other places in the Old Testament, all of which describe a place to wait until, and this is the most important part, the "death of the high priest."

    For Jewish believers prior to Israel being cut off, but after Christ's DBR, who was the High Priest? (Hint: Priest and King according to the Order of Melchizedek)

    Jesus Christ, who is both Priest and King.

    Sheol, also known as Abraham's Bosom, was the place of refuge in Hell for the faithful to wait until...

    You guessed it...

    The death of Jesus Christ.

    Who, while in the grave, preached to them for three days, offering them salvation from hell.

    There is a sermon from Pastor Enyart from 2015 that deals with the topic of where Christ was during the three days His body was in the tomb (and, in doing so, addresses the problems with soul sleep)

    http://store.kgov.com/20150405-where...se-three-days/

    If you would like, I will gladly give you money to purchase that sermon and listen to it.

    This is a fairly important doctrinal issue, and it deserves a fair hearing, imo. And, also imo, just relying on traditional views of death is not sufficient.

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    Death and Hades is a place for spirits which eventually give up their dead
    Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
    Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
    You can't just have "Death and Hades" as such a place. "The Sea" is included as well. Are you saying that the sea is also a place where souls are kept until judgment?

    I'm not sure what the options are for what the sea, death, and hades are referring to, but it is interesting that all three are mentioned somewhat equally in Rev 20:13 (and they are also considered gods of Greek mythology, for whatever that's worth):

    "Hades"-god of the underworld
    "Thanatos"-god of death
    "Thalassa"-goddess of the sea

    It is also interesting that only 2 of the three are thrown into the lake of fire. Thalassa escapes.

    Unless we want to entertain the idea that some souls are held in "Hades", some in "Death", and some in "the Sea", then we might want to consider what these are suppose to mean. For instance, perhaps "Hades" includes all those whose bodies were buried. And perhaps "the Sea" is all those whose bodies were dumped into the sea, or who drowned and weren't recovered. I'm not sure about "Death", so I'll hazard the guess that it is everybody that wasn't either buried or drowned/dumped in the sea, so it would included cremated bodies or those which animals ate or those that rotted on the surface of the ground.

    If read in this context, then when one of those places "gives up the dead" that is in it, it means they were resurrected. It also clears up the problem of Thalassa escaping the lake of fire--"the Sea" is more of a neutral party, with good (shipping, travel, vacations at the beach) aspects as well as bad (hurricanes, drownings, sea monsters). The other two are exclusively related to death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Both, but mainly because of the former.



    Even the demons believe that, and tremble.



    Agreed.



    Something which those of us who reject "soul sleep" acknowledge, and even use as our own defence of being alive after death and fully aware of what is going on around them.

    Sleep is used multiple times in the Bible as a euphemism, "a mild or indirect word or expression substituted for one considered to be too harsh or blunt when referring to something unpleasant or embarrassing," for death.

    ...

    There are plenty of scriptures that contradict this assertion.

    For example, Revelation 6:9.



    Even if the story of the rich man and Lazarus was JUST a parable, one would do well to remember that parables are based on reality, not fiction or fantasy.

    But I believe that that story is also something that actually happened, because of what is said throughout the Bible, in particular, about the laws concerning cities of refuge, mentioned in Exodus 21, Numbers 35, Deuteronomy 4, Deuteronomy 19, Joshua 20, and many other places in the Old Testament, all of which describe a place to wait until, and this is the most important part, the "death of the high priest."

    For Jewish believers prior to Israel being cut off, but after Christ's DBR, who was the High Priest? (Hint: Priest and King according to the Order of Melchizedek)

    Jesus Christ, who is both Priest and King.

    Sheol, also known as Abraham's Bosom, was the place of refuge in Hell for the faithful to wait until...

    You guessed it...

    The death of Jesus Christ.

    Who, while in the grave, preached to them for three days, offering them salvation from hell.

    There is a sermon from Pastor Enyart from 2015 that deals with the topic of where Christ was during the three days His body was in the tomb (and, in doing so, addresses the problems with soul sleep)

    http://store.kgov.com/20150405-where...se-three-days/

    If you would like, I will gladly give you money to purchase that sermon and listen to it.



    Good post, JR!

    I'm not unfamiliar with what you've written (thanks for the offer for the sermon--that's very kind), and I tend to think of it as the traditional view. I like the association with the cities of refuge.

    I think it's a good possibility that there had to be a special accounting of those that were faithful in the Old Testament such that when Jesus died, their sins were taken care of, but I'm also not immune to the possible use of "Sheol" for burial place or a state of death. And an "accounting" isn't necessarily the same as some kind of storage place for souls.

    I am especially uncomfortable with the name "Abraham's Bosum" being used in this manner, since the only use of it is in the story of Lazarus, and only where Abraham was in the story himself, thus, the reference to "Abraham's bosom" (no caps this time) is reasonably accounted for just by the fact that Lazarus was now with Abraham and being comforted, not that it was a name of a place.

    Not so for the term "paradise" that Jesus promised to the thief on the cross, which I'm sure Bob mentions in his sermon. That story, obviously not parabolic, contains elements that seem to be referring to 1) a place (Paradise), 2) a time (today), and 3) cognizance/relationship ("you'll be with Me").

    Some of the things I struggle with are:
    1. Judgment day. Why have one if everybody is already in the place of torment or comfort they are destined for? The rich man was already in torment, but is that fair without a judgment taking place? And if that judgment has already taken place, why do we need another one later on?
    2. Torment. If the dead are in torment without real bodies, what is that like? Do our souls feel pain without bodies? Some has posited that "hell" is more mental than emotional pain--anguish over what we didn't do in the time we had to do it.
    3. Resurrection. If everybody is eventually resurrected, but everybody was already able to see, hear, feel pain, and relate to people prior to resurrection (all of which are in the Lazarus story), of what use is the resurrection? Seems like it is unnecessary.
    4. Resurrection of the damned. Even if resurrection of the saved is still necessary, why of the damned? Seems like a waste of time, power, and materials to recombine all of the elements in every human person's body just to destroy them all in the lake of fire, especially if the preliminary judgment has already taken place anyway.

    Finally, to reply specifically to one of your points:
    And likewise death is used figuratively to describe (even today) to describe sleep (or tiredness, even; eg: "he's dead on his feet", also Revelation 1:17)
    It's interesting that you bring this up, because your usage is one that helps to understand why "death" is used to describe a state where the person is not functioning correctly. But if all the functions are still available, how can that be "death"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Is it a cult belief because it is antithetical to scripture, or is it a cult belief because it is antithetical to traditional beliefs?

    I know that some cults hold to it, but some cults also hold to some Christian truths (like "Jesus Christ lived in history"), and those truths aren't made false by their holding them.

    @Rosenritter pointed out that the Old Testament is replete with references to death as "sleep" and as the person not retaining cognitive ability. Is it really the case that the story of Lazarus and the rich man can undo a good part of the OT's words on death?

    This is a fairly important doctrinal issue, and it deserves a fair hearing, imo. And, also imo, just relying on traditional views of death is not sufficient.
    Rosenritter did not point out "cognitive" inability from the OT, but read the soul sleep doctrine INTO what was written. King Solomon speaks of man's truths and things done "under the sun". So when you read about what the dead know...it's of all those things done under the sun. They have no "portion for ever IN ANY THING THAT IS DONE UNDER THE SUN. If you ignore that, you've missed it all.

    Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
    4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

    Rosen does the same thing with Paul's verse about being absent from the body and present with the Lord. It's clear to all those who don't fall for the lie of "soul sleep". In point of fact, man is comprised of more than just a body, but that is denied at every turn.

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