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Thread: ST. JOHN 11:26

  1. #31
    Over 4000 post club lifeisgood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Why do you say this? What is your evidence for this?
    What do you mean why I say that? Have you never read about the Judgment Seat of Christ / Bema Seat of Christ (this is for the Believers; this is to receive rewards, nothing to do with salvation)

    Romans 14:10–12 says, “For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. . . . So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God”

    Second Corinthians 5:10 tells us, “We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”



    Have you never heard about the Great White Throne Judgement (this judgment is for Unbelievers).
    (Revelation 20:11-15 Revelation 20:7-15 Revelation 20:7-10 Revelation 20:12 Psalm 28:4; 62:12; Romans 2:6; Revelation 2:23; 18:6; 22:12)


    The issue that most have with the Bible is that they do not believe what it says. If you believe what it says, there is no problems in the Bible. (Yeah, yeah, I know about what people say against it ad nauseum, but a thorough study of the Bible will show you that there is no contradictions.)

    There is nothing more profitable than the study of the word of God.
    No man can come to God except through Christ. (Jn. 14:20)
    No man can come to Christ unless he comes through the Cross. (Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:13–18)
    No man can come to the Cross without a denial of self. (Lk. 9:23–24)

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  3. #32
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    The Bible teaches that for ALL who are In Christ...

    There is NOW no condemnation for us (Romans 8:1)

    We can never be separated from God’s love (Romans 8:39)

    We who are many from one body (Romans 12:5)

    We have wisdom from God (1 Corinthians 1:30)

    Our labor is not in vain (1 Corinthians 15:58)

    We are a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17)

    We become God’s children (Galatians 3:26)

    We have every spiritual blessing (Ephesians 1:3)

    We have the forgiveness of sins (Ephesians 1:7)

    We were also chosen (Ephesians 1:11)

    We are for the praise of his glory (Ephesians 1:12)

    We have been seated in the heavenly realms (Ephesians 2:6)

    We have been given the incomparable riches of God’s grace (Ephesians 2:7)

    We who were once far away have been brought near (Ephesians 2:13)

    We are built together as a holy building (Ephesians 2:22)

    We may approach God with freedom and confidence (Ephesians 3:12)

    We are light (Ephesians 5:8)

    Our joy overflows (Philippians 1:26)

    All our needs are met according to his glorious riches (Philippians 4:19)

    We are holy and faithful (Colossians 1:2)

    All things hold together in Him (Colossians 1:17)

    We have our hope of glory (Colossians 1:27)

    We become fully mature (Colossians 1:28)

    All hidden treasures of wisdom and knowledge are for us (Colossians 2:3)

    We are rooted and built up in Christ (Colossians 2:7)

    We have been given the fullness of the deity (Colossians 2:9-10)

    We come into reality (Colossians 2:17)

    Our life is now hidden in Christ (Colossians 3:3)

    We will rise from the dead (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

    We can give thanks IN (NOT for) all circumstances (1 Thessalonians 5:18)

    We have faith, hope, and love (1Timothy 1:1, 14)

    We can gain an excellent standing and great assurance (1 Timothy 3:13)

    We have the promise of life [eternal] (2 Timothy 1:1)

    None of these found in Christ will go the Great White Throne Judgment for we all have already been judged in Jesus Christ and his perfect, atoning, vicarious, sacrificial, completed/finished work on the Cross of Calvary.
    Last edited by lifeisgood; November 28th, 2018 at 07:20 AM. Reason: Typos
    No man can come to God except through Christ. (Jn. 14:20)
    No man can come to Christ unless he comes through the Cross. (Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:13–18)
    No man can come to the Cross without a denial of self. (Lk. 9:23–24)

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    Tambora (December 3rd, 2018)

  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisgood View Post
    The Bible teaches that for ALL who are In Christ...

    There is NOW no condemnation for us (Romans 8:1)

    We can never be separated from God’s love (Romans 8:39)

    We who are many from one body (Romans 12:5)

    We have wisdom from God (1 Corinthians 1:30)

    Our labor is not in vain (1 Corinthians 15:58)

    We are a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17)

    We become God’s children (Galatians 3:26)

    We have every spiritual blessing (Ephesians 1:3)

    We have the forgiveness of sins (Ephesians 1:7)

    We were also chosen (Ephesians 1:11)

    We are for the praise of his glory (Ephesians 1:12)

    We have been seated in the heavenly realms (Ephesians 2:6)

    We have been given the incomparable riches of God’s grace (Ephesians 2:7)

    We who were once far away have been brought near (Ephesians 2:13)

    We are built together as a holy building (Ephesians 2:22)

    We may approach God with freedom and confidence (Ephesians 3:12)

    We are light (Ephesians 5:8)

    Our joy overflows (Philippians 1:26)

    All our needs are met according to his glorious riches (Philippians 4:19)

    We are holy and faithful (Colossians 1:2)

    All things hold together in Him (Colossians 1:17)

    We have our hope of glory (Colossians 1:27)

    We become fully mature (Colossians 1:28)

    All hidden treasures of wisdom and knowledge are for us (Colossians 2:3)

    We are rooted and built up in Christ (Colossians 2:7)

    We have been given the fullness of the deity (Colossians 2:9-10)

    We come into reality (Colossians 2:17)

    Our life is now hidden in Christ (Colossians 3:3)

    We will rise from the dead (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

    We can give thanks IN (NOT for) all circumstances (1 Thessalonians 5:18)

    We have faith, hope, and love (1Timothy 1:1, 14)

    We can gain an excellent standing and great assurance (1 Timothy 3:13)

    We have the promise of life [eternal] (2 Timothy 1:1)

    None of these found in Christ will go the Great White Throne Judgment for we all have already been judged in Jesus Christ and his perfect, atoning, vicarious, sacrificial, completed/finished work on the Cross of Calvary.
    Excellant compilation. Accurate summary.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

  6. #34
    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    I don't see all as believers in the second resurrection. But all are believers in the first. The first might also be constrained to those believers who have obviously proved their devotion to Christ, by submitting to severe persecution.

    There appear to be believers who come out of the second resurrection, because only "all who are not found written in the book of life" are cast into the lake of fire. So a judgment is actually taking place based on something. I'm thinking that "something" is whether they are willing to submit to Christ as Lord at that time, but it might be something else from during their lives.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    "The rest of the dead" are among the greater resurrection. The first resurrection is "lesser" in numbers being composed only of the saints of God and Christ, the second resurrection is "greater" in numbers composed of all who have ever lived, child, man, woman, slave, and king. Since we are told the "first" resurrection is of the saints, by deduction any mention of a resurrection of non-saints must be the second resurrection.

    Isaiah 26:19-21, 27:1 KJV
    (19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
    (20) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
    (21) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
    (1) In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

    Daniel 12:2 KJV
    (2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Acts 24:15 KJV
    (15) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

    Revelation 20:5-6 KJV
    (5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    (6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Revelation 20:12-13 KJV
    (12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    Isaiah 14:9-10 KJV
    (9) Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
    (10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

    Those references (above) seem likely to be reference to the second resurrection.
    The thought that I am thinking is about how the second resurrection is not the second death. Can you see why I would say this here?

  7. #35
    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisgood View Post
    What do you mean why I say that? Have you never read about the Judgment Seat of Christ / Bema Seat of Christ (this is for the Believers; this is to receive rewards, nothing to do with salvation)

    Romans 14:10–12 says, “For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. . . . So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God”

    Second Corinthians 5:10 tells us, “We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”



    Have you never heard about the Great White Throne Judgement (this judgment is for Unbelievers).
    (Revelation 20:11-15 Revelation 20:7-15 Revelation 20:7-10 Revelation 20:12 Psalm 28:4; 62:12; Romans 2:6; Revelation 2:23; 18:6; 22:12)


    The issue that most have with the Bible is that they do not believe what it says. If you believe what it says, there is no problems in the Bible. (Yeah, yeah, I know about what people say against it ad nauseum, but a thorough study of the Bible will show you that there is no contradictions.)

    There is nothing more profitable than the study of the word of God.
    I have seen a difference between the list of apostles in Matthew and Luke and I believe that there is one in Mark too. However, I believe the Bible, even about a judgment seat and a great white throne (is Jesus present at both? Are they the same?). I am not sure how any of this has to do with something that I was talking about.

  8. #36
    Over 2000 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisgood View Post
    Not talking about believers now, but talking about believers from the tribulation, the great (as the Greek has it)
    I don't quite understand what you mean by "talking about believers from the tribulation" when Revelation 20:15 appears to be talking about a group inclusive of those who are thrown in lake of fire.

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    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisgood View Post
    All found in Christ (Believers) will also receive judgement albeit not for salvation at the Judgment Seat of Christ / Bema Seat of Christ.

    Romans 14:10–12 says, “For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. . . . So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God”

    Second Corinthians 5:10 tells us, “We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”
    Is there a reason why the saints could not receive judgment when they are raised, before the great judgment? There's no reason that has to be at the same timing. There's another relevant passage:

    Daniel 7:22 KJV
    (22) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    When does the Ancient of days come? Answer = Christ's return
    As a prerequisite for anything involving the saints, when are the saints made alive? Answer = Christ's return

    When is judgment given to the saints of the most High? Answer = somewhere between Christ's return and when the saints possess the kingdom

    When do the saints possess the kingdom? Answer = Revelation 20:14, when Christ returns, 1000 years before the great Judgment.

    Revelation 20:4 KJV
    (4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


    * OK, I realize that "and judgment was given unto them" could also mean that the power of judgment was given unto them (how else could one reign as a king and a priest without the power of judgment?) But would it make any sense to grant the power of judgment to someone that had not yet been judged themselves?

    Consider the parables of the pounds and the talents. Aren't these servants in these parables judged before being given authority over cities? So the servants receive judgment before being given the power to judge over others.

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    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisgood View Post
    Not talking about believers now, but talking about believers from the tribulation, the great (as the Greek has it)
    ... I'm not sure why you conclude that marked blue portion above.

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    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    The thought that I am thinking is about how the second resurrection is not the second death. Can you see why I would say this here?
    The second resurrection is not the second death... the second resurrection is coming back to life from the first death. On the other side of that second resurrection is either a) eternal life or b) the second death.

    If you meant to say that the second resurrection does not lead to the second death then I am not sure why you would say that (if so could you please elaborate?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisgood View Post
    The Bible teaches that for ALL who are In Christ...

    There is NOW no condemnation for us (Romans 8:1)

    We can never be separated from God’s love (Romans 8:39)

    We who are many from one body (Romans 12:5)

    We have wisdom from God (1 Corinthians 1:30)

    Our labor is not in vain (1 Corinthians 15:58)

    We are a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17)

    We become God’s children (Galatians 3:26)

    We have every spiritual blessing (Ephesians 1:3)

    We have the forgiveness of sins (Ephesians 1:7)

    We were also chosen (Ephesians 1:11)

    We are for the praise of his glory (Ephesians 1:12)

    We have been seated in the heavenly realms (Ephesians 2:6)

    We have been given the incomparable riches of God’s grace (Ephesians 2:7)

    We who were once far away have been brought near (Ephesians 2:13)

    We are built together as a holy building (Ephesians 2:22)

    We may approach God with freedom and confidence (Ephesians 3:12)

    We are light (Ephesians 5:8)

    Our joy overflows (Philippians 1:26)

    All our needs are met according to his glorious riches (Philippians 4:19)

    We are holy and faithful (Colossians 1:2)

    All things hold together in Him (Colossians 1:17)

    We have our hope of glory (Colossians 1:27)

    We become fully mature (Colossians 1:28)

    All hidden treasures of wisdom and knowledge are for us (Colossians 2:3)

    We are rooted and built up in Christ (Colossians 2:7)

    We have been given the fullness of the deity (Colossians 2:9-10)

    We come into reality (Colossians 2:17)

    Our life is now hidden in Christ (Colossians 3:3)

    We will rise from the dead (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

    We can give thanks IN (NOT for) all circumstances (1 Thessalonians 5:18)

    We have faith, hope, and love (1Timothy 1:1, 14)

    We can gain an excellent standing and great assurance (1 Timothy 3:13)

    We have the promise of life [eternal] (2 Timothy 1:1)

    None of these found in Christ will go the Great White Throne Judgment for we all have already been judged in Jesus Christ and his perfect, atoning, vicarious, sacrificial, completed/finished work on the Cross of Calvary.
    How do we know that we are part of that group? Were all the members of the churches Paul was writing to included? Are you one of those just because you attended one of those churches?

    Now look at it from God's perspective, if possible. How would he determine if someone is wholly committed to Him? One example is Abraham's almost sacrifice of Lot. God said [Gen 22:12 KJV] ...now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.

    What other tests might God require us to pass to see if we really fear Him? I'm not sure, but Rev 20 give us a clue:
    [Rev 20:4 KJV] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    [Rev 20:5 KJV] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.


    It doesn't say that every believer will be raised form the dead at that first resurrection--only those that were beheaded for their witness of Jesus and for the word of God, and had not worshipped the beast or his imgae or received the mark. The wording could mean only those killed for the gospel would be resurrected at that time, and not all believers. And that would be a test similar to Abraham's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    The thought that I am thinking is about how the second resurrection is not the second death. Can you see why I would say this here?
    No, second resurrection is not the second death, as resurrection starts from a point of death and ends in a point of life. Death starts from a point of life and ends in a point of death. They are opposite, and opposites can't be equal.

    But a second death implies a first death and a resurrection, else there's nothing to die the second time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    The second resurrection is not the second death... the second resurrection is coming back to life from the first death. On the other side of that second resurrection is either a) eternal life or b) the second death.

    If you meant to say that the second resurrection does not lead to the second death then I am not sure why you would say that (if so could you please elaborate?)
    I am confused by your post. Please don't ask why I am confused. I don't know. However, I may have provided you with something you are confused by. The second resurrection is not spoken of. What I am saying is that not all end up in the lake of fire unless it says so. So, what does it say?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    No, second resurrection is not the second death, as resurrection starts from a point of death and ends in a point of life. Death starts from a point of life and ends in a point of death. They are opposite, and opposites can't be equal.

    But a second death implies a first death and a resurrection, else there's nothing to die the second time.
    This view is that a second death implies a first death. Is this for an individual or individuals? Or, something else?

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    Over 5000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    How do we know that we are part of that group? Were all the members of the churches Paul was writing to included? Are you one of those just because you attended one of those churches?

    Now look at it from God's perspective, if possible. How would he determine if someone is wholly committed to Him? One example is Abraham's almost sacrifice of Lot. God said [Gen 22:12 KJV] ...now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.

    What other tests might God require us to pass to see if we really fear Him? I'm not sure, but Rev 20 give us a clue:
    [Rev 20:4 KJV] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    [Rev 20:5 KJV] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.


    It doesn't say that every believer will be raised form the dead at that first resurrection--only those that were beheaded for their witness of Jesus and for the word of God, and had not worshipped the beast or his imgae or received the mark. The wording could mean only those killed for the gospel would be resurrected at that time, and not all believers. And that would be a test similar to Abraham's.
    Paul speaks in the encompassing "we" sense when he speaks to the Corinthians:

    1 Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV
    (51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    I am confused by your post. Please don't ask why I am confused. I don't know. However, I may have provided you with something you are confused by. The second resurrection is not spoken of. What I am saying is that not all end up in the lake of fire unless it says so. So, what does it say?
    1. You are right in pointing out that the term "the second resurrection" is inferred rather than specifically named. What I meant was when the "rest of the dead" live again (Revelation 20:5 & Revelation 20:12-13.)

    2,. You are correct in that it does not state that all (of the rest of the dead) end up in the lake of fire. It actually says:

    Revelation 20:14-15 KJV
    (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    coupled with

    Revelation 21:6-8 KJV
    (6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
    (7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
    (8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Summarizing:

    1. The resurrection of the rest of the dead is promised (even of those who are not righteous) to which Paul confirms his belief in Acts.

    2. Although there are those in Christ who are already raised (this is called the first resurrection) those who were dead but were had not already raised will be alive for that judgment

    3. On the other side of that judgment, there are two possible results:
    a) an ending, to be destroyed in fire, also called the second death. The opposite of life.
    b) a beginning, to enter into life and the holy city, to drink of the waters of life that flow freely for all that thirst. Eternal life, the opposite of death.

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to Rosenritter For Your Post:

    Derf (November 29th, 2018)

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