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Thread: ST. JOHN 11:26

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    More nonsense from clefty, and no sense talking to a brick wall.

    Psa 92:5 O Jehovah, Your purposes are very deep. How great are Your works!
    Psa 92:6 An animal-like man does not know; a fool does not understand this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    Psa 92:5 O Jehovah, Your purposes are very deep. How great are Your works!
    Psa 92:6 An animal-like man does not know; a fool does not understand this.
    Indeed, and Clefty is a natural man of the flesh. He cannot understand spiritual things.

    Thus his fixation on the flesh and it's nakedness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Indeed, and Clefty is a natural man of the flesh. He cannot understand spiritual things.

    Thus his fixation on the flesh and it's nakedness.
    he is convinced he is right like a jehovah witness but he is not interested in the truth ,
    which is why he doesn't respond directly to what we write .

    2Ti 3:13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    he is convinced he is right like a jehovah witness but he is not interested in the truth ,
    which is why he doesn't respond directly to what we write .

    2Ti 3:13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
    Mocking the truth is even worse than not seeing it, brother.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Mocking the truth is even worse than not seeing it, brother.
    When you ladies get your hair dried we can talk about the OP of the thread...Martha’s answer was confirmation she herself did not believe her brother was at Abraham’s Bosom motel...but that she knew he would rise again at the resurrection at the last day...with a body and glorified and NOT as a skinny dipping spirit without clothes of flesh or blood or bones

    BTW I don’t mock truth just your version of it...your idolatry must be shouted louder and with many others as your god may be asleep or on a trip...

    Gossiping is also so typical of your class...Pharisees have to

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    When you ladies get your hair dried we can talk about the OP of the thread...Martha’s answer was confirmation she herself did not believe her brother was at Abraham’s Bosom motel...but that she knew he would rise again at the resurrection at the last day...with a body and glorified and NOT as a skinny dipping spirit without clothes of flesh or blood or bones

    BTW I don’t mock truth just your version of it...your idolatry must be shouted louder and with many others as your god may be asleep or on a trip...

    Gossiping is also so typical of your class...Pharisees have to
    Your soul sleep belief is typical of most cults. Which one are you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Your soul sleep belief is typical of most cults. Which one are you?
    A sect known as “the Way”...heard of it? Myriads of jews followed too...believed and were still zealous for the law...and all those goyim crowding the synagogues...hearing Moses preached and read every Sabbath...I am with all those martyred uncompromised for fanboyz or forum status...but FOR HIM AS HE DID...following Him...picking up the cross...

    You are following another tradition...the pharisees...then more jews baring false witness and finally Rome itself mocked at first...but then well...

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    A sect known as “the Way”...heard of it? Myriads of jews followed too...believed and were still zealous for the law...and all those goyim crowding the synagogues...hearing Moses preached and read every Sabbath...I am with all those martyred uncompromised for fanboyz or forum status...but FOR HIM AS HE DID...following Him...picking up the cross...

    You are following another tradition...the pharisees...then more jews baring false witness and finally Rome itself mocked at first...but then well...
    You are falsely accusing the early believers.

    Sleep always refers to the body.

    Your foolishness proves you belong to some cult.

    Now, which cult do you belong to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    You are falsely accusing the early believers.

    Sleep always refers to the body.

    Your foolishness proves you belong to some cult.

    Now, which cult do you belong to.

    Here’s the formula again...

    body formed from dust + spirit breathed into it = living soul

    At death the body back to dust...the spirit back to the Lendor...no living soul...

    Until...resurrection day the last trump His appearing...

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    Here’s the formula again...

    body formed from dust + spirit breathed into it = living soul
    There's your first problem.

    Man is a living soul, but also has a soul.

    1 Thessalonians 5:23
    And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    You refuse to believe that man is triune, just as God is triune. Thus your error.

    At death the body back to dust...the spirit back to the Lendor...no living soul...

    Until...resurrection day the last trump His appearing...
    See, you ignore man's soul. That's error.

    With your limited definition of man's soul, this verse is a joke.

    Will you joke about it, too? How is it that they can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul?

    Matthew 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    There's your first problem.

    Man is a living soul, but also has a soul.
    oh boy...here we go...

    1 Thessalonians 5:23
    And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Nothing there about souls beyond the grave...the body dead and back to dust the spirit returned and souls asleep are EXACTLY blameless...LOL...the concern is that all 3 are BLAMELESS unto the coming of our Lord...not conscious until that day...

    You add to that that after death the soul is conscious and floating about without flesh or blood or bones...not able to touch or eat but to what end pray tell? The dead can not worship...or?

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    good and necessary to judge which of these souls continue and which of these die the second death...

    You refuse to believe that man is triune, just as God is triune. Thus your error.
    I gave you the formula its 3 parts...hmmm so you created a triune god from the image of man? No surprise as yours would change both times and laws too...


    See, you ignore man's soul. That's error.
    Understanding it sleeps is not ignoring it...had He once said the soul is in heaven when the body is dead would then not have you yours in error...but He never once said that...

    With your limited definition of man's soul, this verse is a joke.
    no joke...body to dust...spirit returned to Lendor...soul asleep...the joke is that you agree with the father of lies...you shall surely NOT DIE...joke is you think the Soul is immortal...when He clearly seperated man from the tree of life to receive the wages of sin DEATH...not an upgrade to the spiritual realm...

    If ghosts and spirits were possible why even bother with the physical?

    Will you joke about it, too? How is it that they can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul?
    see that is funny...you do think the Soul is immortal...not dependent on the tree of life...but could live on without His Spirit...only ONE is immortal...silly

    Matthew 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    Right they cant kill the soul but fear Him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body...destroy as in NO MORE...final...destroyed...

    NOT a constant state of being destroyed or being tormented or tortured forever...but destroyed...GONE...annihilated...body and soul...the spirit remains the Lendor’s...

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    oh boy...here we go...

    Spoiler
    Nothing there about souls beyond the grave...the body dead and back to dust the spirit returned and souls asleep are EXACTLY blameless...LOL...the concern is that all 3 are BLAMELESS unto the coming of our Lord...not conscious until that day...

    You add to that that after death the soul is conscious and floating about without flesh or blood or bones...not able to touch or eat but to what end pray tell? The dead can not worship...or?

    good and necessary to judge which of these souls continue and which of these die the second death...

    I gave you the formula its 3 parts...hmmm so you created a triune god from the image of man? No surprise as yours would change both times and laws too...


    Understanding it sleeps is not ignoring it...had He once said the soul is in heaven when the body is dead would then not have you yours in error...but He never once said that...

    no joke...body to dust...spirit returned to Lendor...soul asleep...the joke is that you agree with the father of lies...you shall surely NOT DIE...joke is you think the Soul is immortal...when He clearly seperated man from the tree of life to receive the wages of sin DEATH...not an upgrade to the spiritual realm...

    If ghosts and spirits were possible why even bother with the physical?

    see that is funny...you do think the Soul is immortal...not dependent on the tree of life...but could live on without His Spirit...only ONE is immortal...silly



    Right they cant kill the soul but fear Him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body...destroy as in NO MORE...final...destroyed...

    NOT a constant state of being destroyed or being tormented or tortured forever...but destroyed...GONE...annihilated...body and soul...the spirit remains the Lendor’s...
    So you discount the verses you can't understand...just as you discount what you cannot see with your eyes.

    You're a natural man, Clefty, and have no knowledge of spiritual things.

    All this because you reject our Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    So you discount the verses you can't understand...just as you discount what you cannot see with your eyes.

    You're a natural man, Clefty, and have no knowledge of spiritual things.

    All this because you reject our Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour God.
    You repeat lies so much you convince yourself...

    Rejecting Him is by not following Him His way...rapturing yourself from His burden His yoke...dividing His house between those that have chores and those that do not...

    Paul instructed copy him as he copied Him...ya dig? You are not copying either...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    I'm not sure why you are asking ME these questions. I wasn't the one saying he was waiting. Nor do I think the story is outlandish--it is exactly what we should expect to happen to a man that has been judged and found wanting. And if he is waiting, as you say, why is he waiting for judgment "in torments"? Isn't being "in torments" evidence of a judgment that has already occurred?
    23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. [Luk 16:23 KJV]
    Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    Judgement "day" is later


    Are you telling me God prejudges people before He judges people?
    Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

    Of what purpose then is the "second" judgment, if the rich man has already been judged and is already tormented in the flame?
    Mat 12:36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,
    Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

    Imagine God telling him, after he spends 2000 or so years being tormented in the flame, "Now come to the second judgment where I have already decided to throw you into hell where you will be tormented in the flame!"
    lake of fire is the second death.

    Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
    Revelation 20 tells a different story--it says the dead are raised prior to being judged. This was shown to John by the Lord Jesus Christ. The rich man/Lazarus story has nothing about judgment, so we don't know whether the man was judged before he was tormented, but I rather think that's the case--Abraham seemed to think so:
    25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. [Luk 16:25 KJV]
    raised from ?

    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

    Hades is a place for spirits only

    Abraham gives absolutely NO indication of a future judgment of either the rich man or Lazarus, but he does talk like a judgment has already occurred.

    In summary:
    1. No evidence of waiting
    2. No evidence of a coming judgment
    3. There is evidence of a previous judgment
    4. As mentioned previously, there is evidence of body parts (tongue and finger), which seem like they are only applicable to dead man if he's a resurrected dead man.
    1 Hades & Abraham's side are places of waiting
    2 Abraham & Lazarus are not in heaven , so Judgement day has not happened.
    3 see above (Joh 3:18)
    4 Angels carried Lazarus spirit

    This seems to me to put the scene after the final judgment. I admit there's a time inconsistency, IF it is possible for someone (like Lazarus) to go to the man's brothers, though Abraham gives no indication that it is possible (his main point is that it would be ineffectual). If it is impossible for Lazarus to go back, then we could conclude that it is because the time for them to repent had expired, again putting this scene after the judgment.
    as you said "his main point is that it would be ineffectual"
    Abraham & Lazarus are not in heaven , so Judgement day has not happened.

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    Hi w2g. Sorry about the delayed response--been out of country with no internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    Judgement "day" is later




    Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.



    Mat 12:36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,
    Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
    I would think this might bring questions to your mind about what "condemned" means vs judgment. Or what is the purpose of a judgment day, if judgment has already been rendered. I think we HAVE been judged already--in the garden. We were promised death, and since then all have received or are going to receive that punishment (Rom 5:12 and others). Since that was a judgment, based on our sin, and since the "wages of sin is death", why is it that we would need to die, then be resurrected, and then die a second death (assuming we aren't converted)?

    If we define "death" as the loss of all function of our bodies, but then we retain all that functionality in a bodiless state, I have a hard time calling it "death". "Death" would then have to be defined as something different. Would you like to give me a better definition of death?



    lake of fire is the second death.

    Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

    raised from ?
    That was my question. If they are spirits being raised up from Hades, then it isn't a "resurrection", is it--a raising from "the dead" (also used in raising up from sleep)? You're getting all tangled up in your redefinitions. Now you need to redefine "resurrection" to mean raising from Hades, and from the sea.
    [quote}
    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

    Hades is a place for spirits only
    [/QUOTE]We talked about this already. If you want to be consistent, then if SPIRITS are being liberated from HADES, then SPIRITS must be being liberated from the SEA. But I've never heard any kind of doctrine tell us that spirits/souls are being kept in the sea awaiting judgment.

    1 Hades & Abraham's side are places of waiting
    Which you don't seem to be able to cite scripture for. Abraham's bosom ("side" as you say here) is ONLY mentioned in this story of Lazarus and the rich man, but there is no hint--not a jot or a tittle--of any kind of waiting going on. If I've missed it, please show me where it is.
    2 Abraham & Lazarus are not in heaven , so Judgement day has not happened.
    The only location given in the story is that of the rich man, who is in Hades. It doesn't say where Abraham and Lazarus are. Surely Abraham is not in Abraham's bosom, is he? Thus, your interpretation of "Abraham's side" seems a good one. But Abraham can't be at Abraham's side (unless he's "beside himself" with joy. )
    3 see above (Joh 3:18)
    The problem with that interpretation is that we have no indication that Lazarus believed in Jesus, do we? If so, where? So these passages don't really integrate very well.
    4 Angels carried Lazarus spirit
    And one finger...

    as you said "his main point is that it would be ineffectual"
    Abraham & Lazarus are not in heaven , so Judgement day has not happened.
    As I said above, there is no location provided in the story to let us know where Lazarus and Abraham are. And because none of our other descriptions of Hades include any kind of interaction like this, it seems without merit to conclude that Abraham and Lazarus are in Hades.

    I don't want to just be obstinate in this discussion--I want to separate truth from tradition, wheat from chaff. If we can limit ourselves to expressing just what the scriptures say, and no more (at least without proper caveats), then I think can more easily arrive at the truth.

    You and @glorydaz have done a masterful job of presenting the traditional storyline on Hades, but it doesn't follow scripture in all cases. That's not saying it IS wrong, only that it has extra-biblical elements that MIGHT be wrong.

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