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Thread: The Gospel Proper

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    TOL Subscriber turbosixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    One more time, clearing up the fog...


    Acts 5, and the inevitable consequences of failing to rightly divide the word of truth, per the 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV command:

    Peter and “the 11” were promised by the Lord Jesus Christ:


    "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26 KJV

    "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13 KJV


    "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost." John 20:22 KJV

    "He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." Matthew 13:11 KJV

    "Boot Camp" for 40 days, taught by the Lord Jesus Christ:

    "To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:... Acts 1:3 KJV


    Realized at Pentecost:

    "And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Acts 1:4-5 KJV


    "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:4 KJV

    "This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." Acts 2:32-33


    "And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness." Acts 4:31 KJV


    (vs. Paul's instruction in this dispensation: "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;..." Ephesians 5:18 KJV)

    And this explains what was occurring in Acts 5 , i.e., how did Peter know?:

    "But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things. " Acts 5:1-11 KJV


    Peter knew, from the miraculous gifts given by the Holy Spirit, "the power on high"(miraculous gifts, including healing, prophesying, tongues,"word of knowledge", raise the dead.......) he and others had received(as promised by the Lord Jesus Christ), that Ananias had "kept back part of the price of the land." This is "the word of knowledge" Paul references:

    "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit." 1Cor. 12:8 KJV


    "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away." 1 Cor. 13:8 KJV(this "knowledge" here is the miraculous gift of the word of knowledge, that Peter had in Acts 5, and which Paul was referring to above; obviously, knowledge will not vanish away, but only the miraculous gift of knowledge).


    Peter was carrying out the instructions given him by the Lord Jesus Christ "to a tee", through the miraculous spiritual gifts given through the Holy Spirit.

    Can believers in this dispensation have the “power” Peter had in early Acts?


    Oh, yes...watch the Pat Roberton/CBN circus act, " I see a man in Mayberry, NC., with a tumor being removed...Claim your miracle today!!!!..Pahraaaaaaaaaaaaaaayz Gaaaaaaaaaaawd."

    Charlatans....We are not going back to Pentecost, despite protests to the contrary....It will come again, however, when the LORD God resumes the prophetic program, including the supernatural sign gifts.....mainly dealing with the nation Israel, who are a "sign people."
    I'm not totally sure I understand your point. IF it's that the gift of knowledge would fade away, I agree. For us today, knowledge is found in the scriptures. They are the word of God.
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Nope.

    For unless they were drinking the water, and that, in gallon loads per person, there would have been no need for much water.

    What the passage is talking about was that the area of water was large enough, and wide enough for both groups bring able to baptize their converts.

    Notice...

    "And John ALSO WAS BAPTIZING in Aenon near to Salim, BECAUSE there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized."
    Your response isn't coherent. He wouldn't need much water unless they were drinking it? You can deny that they needed much water all you like, but it's the gospel itself that says that he needed much water, and it said that he needed the much water for baptizing, not for drinking gallons.

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    Over 1000 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    Being the great, feared, Rifleman, one of the most respected gunslingers on TOL, and one of the most humblest, I typically ignore the noise, and address arguments made,such as this "immersion" jazz, and stay on my topic; thus I am not the best candidate to whom you addressed your question. That's just the way I roll.

    Can you dig it?
    .. Of course . .
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Thanks.

    Yes, I believe the promise of the Holy Spirit was given to the apostles. When we read what they wrote, we are therefore guided by the Holy Spirit. Now, I do also believe with the laying of the apostles hands some were given the Spirit of knowledge but it's my understanding that was for building up of the local congregation. It is my understanding that the gift of Holy Spirit guidance into all truth was not given to all Christians.
    I agree that it's the correct understanding of those scriptures. They were written to us, but Christ there is not speaking to us; He's speaking to His future Apostles. The Spirit of truth rendered the Apostles infallible teachers of our faith. While they lived, they were the living standard of what was true. The Old Testament was available wherever there was a synagogue, but the Apostles' own interpretation of those scriptures supersedes anyone else's reading of the Law and Prophets. Paul didn't just recite Scripture to the Bereans, he preached the Word (Ac17:11KJV); the Gospel, which is a story---he told them a tale. They 'searched the scriptures,' to see, 'whether those things were so.' Confirming Paul's Apostolic teaching authority, when they found that the Scripture comported with the Gospel that Paul preached them. No Apostle would ever contradict the Scripture (the Old Testament/Septuagint in those days), so if anybody found contradiction with Scripture, they knew it was not the truth, and the Apostles never did that.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    TOL Subscriber turbosixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    I'm missing something. Is someone itt arguing that baptism is required to be saved, and that this belongs in the OP statement of the 'Gospel Proper,' or is this a sidetrack? 'Nothing wrong with a good sidetrack, but I wish to clarify.
    I said it belongs.

    16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    When it speaks of "circumcision" it clarifies that the circumcision is not the literal circumcision, but symbolic, with the phrase "with the circumcision made without hands." When it speaks of "baptism" it has no such disclaimer.
    Not every symbolic reference in the Bible comes with a "Hey, this is symbolic" tag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Ephesians 4:4-5 KJV
    (4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    (5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    Indeed, there is ONE baptism in the body of Christ and there is NO WATER associated with it.

    1Co 12:13 KJV For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    THAT is the ONE BAPTISM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Except you have been arguing that in Christ there are multiple baptisms... and multiple callings (a baptism and a calling for the Jews and a baptism and a calling for everyone else that is better than the Jews.)
    If you cannot see the multiple baptisms throughout scripture, that would be explained by your problem with understanding the scripture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Jesus was baptized in a river and described as coming out of the water as our example, the figure of baptism is likened to being buried and with the overwhelming of the old world with a flood.
    Once AGAIN, you simply FORCE this meaning on the scripture. Scripture ITSELF never makes such a connection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Your protest is belied by your words and actions. Mockery emoticons are indicative of hostility.
    No, they are not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    I said it belongs.

    16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
    Just fyi, I'm going to quote here from the 'Catechism,' so that it's clear why I as a Catholic theologically, can say that Catholicism does not consider baptism to be necessary for salvation:

    "The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit" (Jn3:5KJV). God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments."

    Excerpted from Text 1257 (emphasis the bishops)

    The 'Catechism' goes into great depth about some examples of how people are saved, even without being baptized, in that same section.

    Again this is just fyi. I'm not contending with you so much as clarifying why I hold to a different view, which really isn't very different practically speaking, but the Church imo does a good job of laying out reasonable exceptions to the rule, which remains a rule by which she has always tried to abide. The exceptions prove the rule, in this case; they don't nullify it.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Indeed, there is ONE baptism in the body of Christ and there is NO WATER associated with it.

    1Co 12:13 KJV For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    THAT is the ONE BAPTISM.
    So what type of baptism is Paul speaking of here?

    1 Corinthians 1:14-16 KJV
    (14) I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
    (15) Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
    (16) And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

    And into what body are these Gentiles baptized here?

    Acts 10:46-48 KJV
    (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
    (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
    (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

    We are told that in Christ we have ONE baptism. We are told in multiple previous places that this baptism involves water in its physical aspect. If you say that other mentions of baptism are instead a type that forsakes (forbids?) water then you have a contradiction of symbolism at the least.

    Spiritually, this question seems to touch on the story of Naaman:

    2 Kings 5:10-13 KJV
    (10) And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean.
    (11) But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper.
    (12) Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage.
    (13) And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?

    Why the phobia (or hatred) of water?

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    I'm not totally sure I understand your point. IF it's that the gift of knowledge would fade away, I agree. For us today, knowledge is found in the scriptures. They are the word of God.
    Oh. It's your problem that you do not understand my point.
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    So what type of baptism is Paul speaking of here?

    1 Corinthians 1:14-16 KJV
    (14) I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
    (15) Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
    (16) And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
    Water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    And into what body are these Gentiles baptized here?

    Acts 10:46-48 KJV
    (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
    (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
    (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
    They were righteous gentiles that blessed Israel. Pay attention to the details.

    Act 10:1-2 KJV There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, (2) A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

    Guess who "the people" are. Nothing new there... no body of Christ there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    We are told that in Christ we have ONE baptism. We are told in multiple previous places that this baptism involves water in its physical aspect. If you say that other mentions of baptism are instead a type that forsakes (forbids?) water then you have a contradiction of symbolism at the least.
    Go ahead and get wet if you like. It has NO PLACE in the body of Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Spiritually, this question seems to touch on the story of Naaman:

    2 Kings 5:10-13 KJV
    (10) And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean.
    (11) But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper.
    (12) Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage.
    (13) And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?
    Israel had MANY "washings".

    Heb 9:10 KJV Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

    "washings" there is "baptismos".

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Why the phobia (or hatred) of water?
    Now you're a liar.
    Last edited by Right Divider; December 6th, 2018 at 02:39 PM. Reason: wrong quote tag
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Water.
    Spoiler



    They were righteous gentiles that blessed Israel. Pay attention to the details.

    Act 10:1-2 KJV There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, (2) A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

    Guess who "the people" are. Nothing new there... no body of Christ there.


    Go ahead and get wet if you like. It has NO PLACE in the body of Christ.


    Israel had MANY "washings".

    Heb 9:10 KJV Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

    "washings" there is "baptismos".


    Now you're a liar.
    You've got Pate's 'quote tags' in all but the first quote here, fyi.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    You've got Pate's 'quote tags' in all but the first quote here, fyi.
    Thanks for the heads up... Fixed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Baptism involves water, it always has been.
    Does it need to be 'full immersion'? Not necessarily- the early Christians did it with buckets and ladles as it often had to be done away from certain eyes, and virtually no Christian had any qualms about it.

    But nonetheless, it has always been done in some fashion of water, the idea of baptism was never commanded to be anything else, certainly not trivialized into a 'symbolic' thing not even to be practiced traditionally in a church.
    Being lazy and full of hubris is all neglecting baptism is, leavened with notions of the Bible having strange, contradictory truths rather than being one singular truth basically no saint in Christian history has ever adopted period beyond modern day 'right dividers'.
    More like 'right wingers who divide'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crucifer View Post
    Baptism involves water, it always has been.
    Mat 20:22-23 KJV But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. (23) And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

    You cannot assume that a verse or passage is talking about water baptism. You have to read it all IN ITS CONTEXT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Go ahead and get wet if you like. It has NO PLACE in the body of Christ.
    It has been my observation that those that willingly humble themselves unto baptism are generally more agreeable to the fruits of the spirit than those that spitefully argue against the ordinance.

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